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  • Another New Generation Rollover

    Gidday All,The following was reported today although the accident occurred a couple of weeks ago:"On Thursday 12th February at about 7.30 am at the airfield unfortunately I had a mishap with my Gyro After pre rotating I started my take off run before pulling the stick back. Realising my mistake, I pulled the stick back creating bladeflap, causing the blades to strike the ground, tipping the gyro over, In hindsight I realise now that after six months of no flying I should have done a couple of circuits with a flight instructor."To say that I am P***ed off is an understatement. Why don"t people learn from others mistakes. OK, the guy wasn"t injured, but his pocket will take a big, big hit if he chooses to rebuild.ASRA has tried to remedy this situation at the root by insisting that ALL instructors understand rotor management and are capable of accelerating blades safely after pre-rotating from low rotor RPM (60 to 80). Whether they choose to use this tried and true technique is another matter. With the "book" technique that has been taught, too much is happening all at once and one small omission or out of sequence results in an expensive rollover. In reality, I"m considering recommending to the Board that all new generation gyro manufacturers be directed to remove the "book" take-off technique from their manuals.No doubt this will open up a can of worms. Sobeit. I"m tired of processing reports such as this.Regards,Allan Wardill.
    Waddles

    In aviation, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask!

  • #2
    Waddles, I reckon if a machine can"t bring the blades up from 60-80 rrpm it shouldn"t be used for training until the student demonstrates excellent rotor management. Don"t even need to hand start them, just a slow prerotation. Matthew

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    • #3
      I have to concur.... when something is promoted as to be done "by the book" and no other way, there is a floor right there.... to fly these machines an indepth understanding as to what stage the rotors are at, what they are ready for and what they are NOT yet ready for and why, is critical imo. To say to prerotate to a certain rpm then stick back and floor the throttle doesn"t allow for the fact that wind and weather don"t often do things "by the book" and if a pilot has an understanding of their machine, the way the rotors react to variations of wind and other weather occurances, to follow a set procedure written in a book is inviting disaster... it is impossible for a manual to cover every possible thing that can go wrong, only good understanding of all things related can give a pilot a chance of correctly reacting to unusual or unplanned mishaps that could be corrected quickly without damage to pilot or machine....I would prefer that flight manuals outlined a good procedure as a guideline, but not as the only method of achieving a safe takeoff... I believe the manual should encourage owners/pilots to learn proper rotor handling and understanding as to what rotors are doing.... until then, I am sure that these machines will continue to fall over and roll themselves in a ball.... by the book

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      • #4
        I had a laugh when I was enjoying the new website and visited the instructor page a couple of days ago. Such a high percentage of (R) instructors. Maybe it should be an apprenticeship where you start in a single with Armstrong prerotator.

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        • #5
          How sad i am to read these comments,how many of you were present and how many of you know what was actually doneby the pilot?, its another clear example of lets blame the book, no wait lets blame all the instructors or may be its the trainingOMG its everything except the fact that the pilot screwed up ,took off down the runway and pulled the stick back at about the time you would normally expect a lift of,and as for the new generation gyro it would be interesting to say the least on a hand start on anenclosed cockpit like a Cavalon or an Orion.The new generation is responsible for making this great pastime

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          • #6
            Guss, supa first time post.Always good to see both sides of story.Graeme.

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            • #7
              SupagussThis accident couldn"t have happened if the pilot understood rotor management.If you slapped together a frame in the garage and bolted on any motor and understood rotor management you"d have a better chance so theirs no point bagging home builts. At least they"re built with clearance as it"s in our construction standard.How many times has this exact thing happened before.... Too many.

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              • #8
                R instructors !

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                • #9
                  I"m real old school, the perfect instructors gyro should be a replica of Rosco"s " twitchy" ! Everything Armstrong. Once a student is to a standard of being able to go solo, then progress to whatever they may wish to fly.I disagree Brian.Aussie Paul.

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                  • #10
                    Brian, You maybe old school, but you understand the concept of lift.

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                    • #11
                      I"m considering recommending to the Board that all new generation gyro manufacturers be directed to remove the "book" take-off technique from their manuals.No doubt this will open up a can of worms. Sobeit. I"m tired of processing reports such as this. alans post is from his heart and you can"t get any deeper than that. probably most times the p.i.c. would have an enormous strip in front of them so it makes me wonder why they go for the high powered rotor short take off that leaves less time for error.

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                      • #12
                        If students are taught.... "all you have to do is face into the wind, prerotate to 200+, stick back and give it balls to the wall and you will fly" then they might have no idea what to do if things don"t quite go by the book, which can end in damaged machinery or worse. Our machines can do awesome things, but they can bite when everything doesn"t line up perfectly and no amount of pages in a book can prepare a pilot for every situation.

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                        • #13
                          If students are taught.... "all you have to do is face into the wind, prerotate to 200+, stick back and give it balls to the wall and you will fly" then they might have no idea what to do if things don"t quite go by the book, which can end in damaged machinery or worse. Our machines can do awesome things, but they can bite when everything doesn"t line up perfectly and no amount of pages in a book can prepare a pilot for every situation.

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                          • #14
                            The problem is most of the so called instructors don"t know what they don"t know nd there for don"t care cause that is what they were taught.Problem starts with people holding instructors tickets with 80 hrsI think it"s easy for low hour instructors to not care that they don"t know what they don"t know because they have these nice machines that they fly inside the envelope and on nice runways and don"t normally have any issues or scares except unless they"ve rolled it.

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                            • #15
                              Im not old scool ( just outa nappys actualy) but i was instructed by one, ina machine that had a fear of flyn.Iv learned since, it was the best thing i coulda dun.He told me rotors spun coz of black majic, built his own machine and was self taught.The instructers job is to learn you how to opperate the machine.90% of that is rotor management.You teach yourself the rest of how to fly for the rest of your life, coz it takes That long, but if the instructer teachs you the basics, the always do,s and the never do,s, then theres no reason why you would bingle your machine out of shear ignorance.We all make mistakes, but the proper instructer will ensure your not ignorant of the **** that matters, no matter how shiney the paint is.An instructer who teachs by the book isnt an instructer, hes just relaying the manufactures sales pitch, and more n likely dont understand it anyway.An instructer that cant hand start the rotor shouldnt be teachn anyone anythn.And dont give me that " cant hand start a twin cabed machine" crap, coz you can.

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