Accidents, have we seen this report??

[WEST OZ FLYER]

Muz, I reckon you are barking up the wrong tree here. His postings of the Mangalore accident may not have been very time sensitive however it was put in the ASRA public section was it not? Whether it was copied or linked to other pages is regardless. Everyone can learn from any accident/incident. The more people that see it, the less likely it is to happen again. This is an Australian report, how is it we have to find out about it on the American forum. Has ASRA failed us?

[tonydenton]

west oz , there was a sad report here on the forum about this accident a while back. you need to check. for me it was like when you are being divorced and you see legal court documents with your childrens names plastered over them and it"s there everywhere in the legal world. it was sad reading it , probably also because it had the legal terminology with everything and it just seems even worse. my eyes welled up then and it can now. our volunteer board has to handle all this , and other than mark , I"m sure the people are just lay people and aren"t trained for this sort of things in their lives. they need our support everyday. . I do know I couldn"t do it , so I take my hat off to those that do. now back to bloody work.

[WEST OZ FLYER]

Tony this was no doubt a sad situation. I understand the circumstances surrounding the report. My point is that a simple Google search revealed this information. I found the same information in the public section on ASRA forum after a Google search not related to the accident.I was never fortunate enough to meet Sam and I will not speak ill of the dead. I learnt alot from reading his posts and believe he was doing exceptional things for gyrocopters in Australia. However from my viewing there was a certain bias towards Sam. Nowhere can I find a donation for other instructors families that have passed from training accidents etc. Only donations for a little wing owner. Now does this emotion turn to hate because they need to blame someone. The circumstances with the report and Steve_UK. He wasn"t the only one to post finding"s from that report. Why blame just him? That is what he does, collect/share factual information. Everyone knows this! Ultimately the blame lies elsewhere.From the "terms and agreements" section of this forum. - "You remain solely responsible for the content of your posted messages."Nowhere does it say that the material can"t be used! There are so many questions but this is not my business so I will stay out of it.I take my hat off to Steve_UK not once has he made a personal attack to anyone although receiving many. Same can"t be said for some of ASRA"s members. ( now and several years ago ) :"(Muz,

[Des Garvin]

Your welcome Mark least I could do with my very limited computer skills, I dig holes better as I have the knowledge and tools to do so. Cheers Des Garvin

[gyroo]

Nothing aimed at you Des - my rant solely about Steve_UKYou just unearthed his "passenger CV"Cheers,Mark R

[gyroo]

Also - to WestOz Flyer (Matt)Interesting point you made about Rosco being invisible and that there"s no information in the public domain about Roscos which is a huge contrast to, say, any of the European machines where you can download manufacturer"s specs, etc.There"s not much ASRA can do if Rosco chooses not to have a web presence and not to publish "product" information. Actually, knowing Ross, even me using the word "product" wouldn"t necessarily meet with his approval because he sees himself as a "builder-to-order". He builds and rebuilds mostly for a niche market. I don"t think he regards himself as having a "product", perhaps wary of the potential liability issues that attach to "products". So be it. I respect his position. Those Roscos in the hands of recreational flyers have usually started life as working machines that have been sold on to recreational users.Of course, there are undoubtedly no other gyro designs that have acquired the same amount of time in service in day-to-day dusty hot outback work. I take great note of that, and even if the design is a bit too high in the thrust line to closely conform to the University of Glasgow recommendations of plus or minus 2 inches, I will readily agree that this aspect is inconsequential when the design is flown on a daily basis by a high-time mustering pilot. Ideally, I"d like Ross to raise the forward keel of his design by 250 mm, but I can"t force him to do that.Cheers,Mark R

[birdy]

If the illegal mustering is racking up hundreds of thousands of hours every year with next to no accidents/fatalities, why should they supplement the sport pilot"s accident/hours rate.VERY good point, in more ways than one.Iv often been of the oppinion that work air hours and rec air hours are so different that they could never be lumped into one lot.Just like you couldnt compare the abilities ofa weekender do,n 100 hours a year, even if he was do,n airshow airobatics, to sumone clockn 700 hours a year, in every air condition imaginable, over country the weekender wont fly over, at an alt he only be at with a dead engine.( also why i stoped compeatn at flyins, )So, if work hours were added to the total, whos go,n to benifit?Certainly not the ones haven the most incidents.Addn a few thousand hours to the total would make it look like gyro pilots, ALL gyro pilots are getn on top of training, currency, comptence issues.Wen in reality, nuthn has changed, cept we,v found a way of falesly maken the gyro scene look like its on the improve.

[gyroo]

That quoted line that Matt (WestOz) wrote is a very insightful, Birdy, and the point that both he and you make is a valid one. It"s the recreational flyers that get killed (mostly), and they don"t do many hours compared with the "bushies".But Birdy - I"m dead against your assertion that we"re somehow "... falsely maken [sic] the gyro scene look like its on the improve ...".

[MadMuz]

Back in the 80"s and 90"s there were more accidents with gyros than now weren"t there? To me, from remembering back then, to now, I would think that gyro safety has improved greatly?

[MilesW]

That quoted line that Matt (WestOz) wrote is a very insightful, Birdy, and the point that both he and you make is a valid one. It"s the recreational flyers that get killed (mostly), and they don"t do many hours compared with the "bushies".But Birdy - I"m dead against your assertion that we"re somehow "... falsely maken [sic] the gyro scene look like its on the improve ...".

[MilesW]

The circumstances with the report and Steve_UK. He wasn"t the only one to post finding"s from that report. Why blame just him? That is what he does, collect/share factual information. Everyone knows this! Ultimately the blame lies elsewhere. No one else does it with such apparent glee.

[MilesW]

This is an Australian report, how is it we have to find out about it on the American forum. Has ASRA failed us?

[MadMuz]

It could even be that ASRA thought the report was so full of holes and missing numbers, that it was worthless in relation to improving safety because of the unreliability of it, so they didn"t bother making mention of it, because it would possibly just cause Australian gyro fliers to get upset with its obvious incorrect information and findings.... which made it perfect as ammunition from our train spotting mate to edit down to its most damaging and post it, not on the Australian forum, where it should have made the most sense, but no, on the US forum, to make Australian gyro pilots and ASRA look bad.... not for safety, but to do damage to Australian and ASRA credibility in the eyes of our US brothers. Had he been presenting the report in an effort to help safety, he would have posted it in the ASRA forum and put a link on the US forum.... but he did it out of spite towards ASRA for not letting him have carte blanche access to all of our statistics, so he did it the otherway around so it comes across to the American gyro folk that Australians are useless and fly dangerous machines, her is the [edited] brief on the report showing how bad we are.... and here is a link to the response to their prodding with a hot poker

[WEST OZ FLYER]

There"s not much ASRA can do if Rosco chooses not to have a web presence and not to publish "product" information. Good someone is starting to get it. Steve_UK can only post the information he can find or is given. If he can"t find it, he can"t post it! No. It is a report from the ATSB, not ASRA. Maybe not even in the Ops Managers post box yet. Surely we don"t expect the board and officers to be trawling the internet like Steve_UK just in case a report with the word gyrocopter in it pops up. Anyway, how do we know the enterprising editor of the Gyro News and perhaps the ops manager hadn"t slated this for a filler in the next edition since there seems to be a shortage of contributions from the members?MilesW Yep it is a report from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau. Did you notice the dates of the paper - 5th November 2014. Steve_UK first post - 29th January 2015. Nearly three months. My Gyro news ( summer 2014 ) turned up last week. If ASRA was as concerned as everybody is saying why did the members not find out about this last year. Surely someone would have been informed about the report. ASRA failed us? I don"t think so. Could it be better - always, nothing is ever perfect.I can"t understand why everyone is getting bent out of shape over some numbers on a document. Numbers is numbers. Take the positive (which there were in his first post) and work on the rest. Did it ever occur to anyone that some people might over represent their hours (hope not) thinking it is a benefit to ASRA? In contrast that report could be worse than what it states.Back in the 80"s and 90"s there were more accidents with gyros than now weren"t there? To me, from remembering back then, to now, I would think that gyro safety has improved greatly?

[birdy]

Mark, with respect mate, "falsely" is stayn there.Coz wot other word would describe the effect of addn a huge number of hours to the total THAT makes the picture look better, as opposed to, as you interprited , TO make the picture look better?I know that if work hours were added, it would not be asras intention to make it look better, falsely.But thats the effect itd have.And if it looks better, the foot would come off the comptency peddle.I know that gyros now are way better than wot was available 20 years ago.But i also know humans dont evolve as quick as gyro engineering.Theres nuthn rong with the machine.Its the driver that hasnt Kept up with the improvements in the machine.The negative effect of a greatly improved machine is a lower comptency of drivers.Zacty the same with these modern " drive themselves" cars.Not at any point was i taken a shot at asra with the " falsely".