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  • Flat spins

    Over the years I"ve met several gyro owner pilots who have been trained by instructors and when I ask them do they know what to do if they find themselves in a flat spin they simply shrug and claim the topic was never discussed. One chap did not even know what I meant by a "Flat spin" I"m just raising the topic to create some awareness as it"s a good idea to at least explain on the ground that a gyro could get into the situation. I have been in several flat spins in my Rosco trainer but due to the high performance, prop. rot. and small tail I No longer demonstrate them in the air on this type of craft.

  • #2
    If the instructor demos or instructs, vertical descents ( as he should anyway) he should also at least warn of uncomanded spins, why they start, how to get out, and how to notice an accidental tail slide.It"s stuff any gyro can do safely, so it should be standard learning.

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    • #3
      I agree birdy but my instructer said straight out that he never taught it.knowing what I know now I would/should of gone and got some extra training , the $$$ would of be worth it . but when you don"t know that how are you supposed to know ????? by the way have you got this weeks 10 mill lotto numbers. ;D ;D ;D

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      • #4
        I have a station owner friend who did the right thing, got training "down south" but was not briefed about flat spins. He saw me doing vertical descents one day and tried the same thing the next day when he was alone. He flat spun all the way and hit a high tree and crashed down sideways to the ground. Unstrapped and noticed one leg facing the wrong way and a bone sticking out. Lucky he had a modern eperb and was rescued one hr. later. This was about 8 yrs. ago. Hoping some new up and coming gyronauts will learn from this. Ask your instructor about flat spins. If they don"t know they shouldn"t be instructing.

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        • #5
          If they don"t know they shouldn"t be instructing.Zactly.I was go,n to say that, but it sounds better comen from an instructor.The student can"t be responsible for his ignorance, see,n as his instructor is sposed to know, and he,d assume he,d at least be informed bout it, specialy the tail slides.

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          • #6
            Hi Max, Birdy,I just read your thread here and totally agree that all instructors should understand vertical descents, tall slides and flat spins.

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            • #7
              Howdy everyone,Noted US helicopter aerodynamicist Ray Prouty has considered what barriers are acting against a general aviation gyroplane revival, and one major factor he identifies is the lack of adequate directional control (EDITED SECTION - see below) during either engine-out situations or low speed flight at low power settings.Unlike a helicopter after engine failure which has the tail rotor mechanically joined to the auto-rotating main rotor, and hence retains full directional control in an engine out situation, a gyro in an engine out situation immediately has compromised directional control compared to a helicopter. Assuming the gyro has very good directional control when high-velocity engine propwash is constantly in contact with the VS and rudder, once the propwash goes then one relies solely on the relative airflow from forward airspeed. Depending on exactly where the VS and rudder is positioned, there is a distinct possibility that the oncoming airflow will be blanketed and otherwise severely disrupted by the gyro frame, reducing the rudder effectiveness.As the engine-out gyro slows to best rate of descent airspeed, the angle of descent gets steeper and the relative airflow is now coming from below and frontal, and a possibility exists that the HS might now begin to blanket or shield the rudder from that oncoming airflow, again compromising rudder effectiveness.If the engine-out gyro is high enough and the pilot deliberately pulls the stick back to initiate a zero forward airspeed vertical descent, then the oncoming airflow passing over the VS and rudder will be coming up from below at the extremely low relative airspeed speed of 1000 to 1500 fpm

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              • #8
                Well, the first paragraph hints that this bloke don"t fly a gyro like a gyro.Noted US helicopter aerodynamicist Ray Prouty has considered what barriers are acting against a general aviation gyroplane revival, and one major factor he identifies is the lack of adequate directional control in all phases of flight, particularly during either engine-out situations or low speed flight at low power settings.He is, after all, a heli driver, not a gyro guru.The gyro is the safest, most controllable craft wen the noise stops.He talks bout gyros haven buggerall yaw control at low ASs and a heli still has full TR control at low ASs.How often is it the best option is a VD to the ground, in either type?And which one would fair best?The key aim is to hit the ground as gently as possibleThe direction your nose is pointn wen you get to the ground is irelivant if you have no horizontal speed.If you happen to have a bit of drift at touch down, it"s much better to have wheels under you than skids.Skids MUST be parallel to your direction of travel.He then talks bout the causes of rotation during a VD.Mate, if there"s so much friction in his rotor bearing that it"s rotating the machine, he,d better get to the ground ASAP.99% of rotational force comes from the downward side of the propAnd, he says that a spinning prop applies more rotational force than a dead one.A dead prop, with one blade horizontal on the downward side has no opposing force on the other side.A spinning prop has one side SLIGHTLY more powerful than the other, not to mention you now have blast over your rudder.Can"t remember the last time I had power on while Landn the gyro.( even the RAF with its crappy little air peddle.)Can"t remember ever thinkn " wish I Hada tail rotor".

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                • #9
                  It"s very likely for these reasons that Ray Prouty advocates for the fitting of tail rotors to gyroplanes intended for GA or larger scale operations.Cheers,Mark ReganMelbourne ASRA Tech Manager=========================================== ===================Not talking about "our" style of gyros.Aussie Paul.

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                  • #10
                    Hi All,After receiving an email from one of our members it seems that there may be some misunderstanding of what I was saying in my comments above.I do not advocate that instructors do full vertical descents, tale slides or flat spins in their training machines or have students try to do them.

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                    • #11
                      Howdy again, I"ve just re-read my initial post. I wrote ".... in all stages of flight" when I actually meant " in some stages of flight, most particularly in an engine-out vertical descent". See the EDIT note in my now-adjusted initial post. That"s what Ray Prouty was most concerned about.Sorry if my phraseology caused any confusion or annoyance (apologies to Birdy). My hat is off to him as the Aussie undisputed guru about such stuff.Mark ReganMelbourne Tech Manager

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                      • #12
                        Great topicMy gyro will strart spinning to the right if I enter a vertical decent with no power.The reason for this is that my rudder is off set to the right to compensate for the p effect from the prop.

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                        • #13
                          No need for apologies Mark, I"m dissagreeing with the other bloke.Like I said, I"v never hada need for a TR to control yaw, even at the lowest speeds, power or not.That includes spotn the RAF on the G spot with no wind.Duno how ol mate flies his gyro, but it"s not to it"s capabilities.Personally, I"v never heard of anything more rediculus as a TR ona gyro.You may as well go heli n be dun with it.Just fly the bloody thing Asa gyro.And tbird, if your ina true VD, your rudder is ineffective with no power on, no matter wot deflection you put onit.The airflow is parallel to the hinge.

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                          • #14
                            Hi BirdyWhat is the best recovery method from a Vd without rudder authority ?

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                            • #15
                              Well Birdy, I don"t even think Ray Prouty would have ever been in a gyro, let alone owned or flown one. That being said, however, he has enormous respect in the industry, has more degrees than a thermometer, and has - I think - done a lot of helicopter experimental test flying with several US manufacturers and most importantly has the ability to write about tricky dynamic and aerodynamic concepts clearly. So far as gyros are concerned I don"t think there"s anyone in the Western World who comes close to your skills, and even I can say that I"ve got more practical gyro experience than Ray Prouty and have never felt I was in a situation where my gyro was manifesting lack of directional control on landing.As for T-Bird and the right yaw, it"s probably got something to do with being in the Southern Hemisphere and Coriolis effect: you know, the bathwater goin" clockwise down the plughole?Mark R

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