Double Cable Swaging - Risky technique

[NiqueNaque]

You two, behave...Bias boating sell them via mail order - check it via google.Cheers,Nick.

[birdy]

An old blot cutter with modified jaws is perfect.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.You can always get the answer you want, if you ask enough experts.

[asra]

quote:Originally posted by birdyAn old blot cutter with modified jaws is perfect.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.You can always get the answer you want, if you ask enough experts.Birdy, when I was in China they had used a vice to crush the swages!! I did not mind this on the brakes, rotor brake etc BUT not on the trim spring swages. I drilled a hole in the thead of a 3/8" bolt that both bits of cable would fit through. Then I tightened a nut from either side until the grip was sufficient.While I was doing this, an old Chinese guy got a pair of bolt cutters and welded a couple of bits of steel to them that had been filed to the correct swaging shape!! I was quite impressed.[^] We were way way outback in China, nowhere near the tourist tracks. Well down south getting closer to Vietnam than anywhere else. The Chinese farming community would leave even the good old Oz ingenuity behind!!!![]Aussie Paul.[]www.firebirdgyros.com

[Brian]

"old blot cutter" . Good thinking !!! That hammer and chisel thing is real dangerous when you miss the chisel and it certainly beats having to start the pilot motor on the dozer !!Brian

[asra]

Even if you buy one of thoughs cheap swaging tools made from 1/2" square bar they come with a "GO,NO GO" gauge. Or you can measure the finished width of the swage to see if it is swaged correctly. I have over 100 swages in my SE5a replica and they were all proof loaded to satisfy myself.But lets play the game anyway. You make a swage, but you are not 100% sure it is ok so you do two (for peace of mind). But the second swage was done be the same person that did the first one that may be no good so you'd better do a third one (for peace of mind). But that swage was done by the same person so you still can't be 100% sure they are ok so you do a forth swage......Daryl Patterson

[Greg Mitchell]

G'Day Gents,I used the aluminium Nicopress sleeves and their little bolt together swagger. I double swagged, with a gap of 3/8" between the two and ensured the cable end was protruding just 1mm or less from the sleeve. All my cable ends were fully intact after I rolled my gyro up into a ball.Having read this thread with interest I thought it time to say...Hey! You are all correct given various applications and myraid of product available to put ends on cables. And so, if you read on you will note the official blurb from Nicopress on their products and yes Daryl it would seem 4 swagges is a possibility....................................... ...........................Nicopress Type Swages: These swage sleeves come in stainless steel, aluminum, copper, and zinc covered copper. The later three are easily crimped with hand tools, but the stainless requires more pressure, usually a hydraulic device. Aluminum sleeves are not for use in the marine environment. All the hand tools are available in our Tool Section of the web site. We also carry a hydraulic swager, give us a call for more info. They are sometimes referred to as "oval swages" because the opening for the two wires, laying side by side, has an oval shape. They provide quick and secure eye creation, plus you can get specially designed ones for use as stops on wires (call us for info on these). For eye splices, one stainless oval sleeve will hold full rated cable strength on 7 x 7 or 7 x 19 cable. On 1 x 19 we recommend using two stainless oval sleeves at each end to hold full rated strength. The copper sleeves hold almost at full cable strength; to be conservative estimate about 80%. Again, use 2 sleeves on 1 x 19 wire. Aluminum swage sleeves will only hold about one half the cable strength. Also, always use a stainless steel thimble inside of the wire eye. We can do swaging for you, just give us the measurements! Click here for custom swaging. The following is and excerpt from Brion Toss's book "The Complete Rigger's Apprentice" on these oval swages. (You might like to pick this book up if you don't have it... a valuable resoure!) Image Insert: 3.17

[Greg Mitchell]

And this from....http://www.foreandaftmarine.com/NICROPRESS.htmNicopress have determined through pull testing that copper and plated copper Nicopress oval sleeves will hold military specification grade aircraft control cable in tension until it breaks, when the cable is made to military specifications; MIL-W-83420, dated 9-7-73 for cable constructions 3x7, 7x7, and 7x19, and MIL-W-1511A-4 dated 2-20-64 and MIL-W-5424B dated 1-10-72 for cable constructions 6x19 IWRC.However, other types and grades of cable exist and may be used with Nicopress sleeves. In order to establish the exact holding power of a Nicopress sleeve when used with other types of cable, Nicopress recommend pull testing prior to use. This step insures the proper selection of materials, the correct pressing procedure, and an adequate margin of safety for the intended use.Fly Safe.Mitch.www.thebutterflyllc.comA thinker sees his own actions as experiments and questions--as attempts to find out something. Success and failure are for him answers above all. - Friedrich Nietzsche

[asra]

Greg,What you have written is correct, as I said on the 24/12/2005 if you understand the "principle" of correct swaging, then you understand why the cable breaks before the swage fails, as this is part of a trade, it comes under the catergory of the "need to know basis", as the Gyroplane owner/builders only have to do the rudder cables, and for those that believe that Mr Benson actually knew what he was talking about, (the mast/keel guy wire), it is by far much cheaper/simpler and time consuming to measure up "correctly" and have your local boat/yacht dealer to do it professionaly for you.My good lady who has a medical degree can look up the Website and absorb all that is written about swaging, however, without the help of a professional actually showing her how it is actually done I would be very suspect to say the least of her efforts, and even more suspect of actually using them.Pete Barsden

[NiqueNaque]

Pete,Oh, ye of little faith.. not trusting your wife?? Goodness me! [How much are you insured for - just tell her gyro accidents aren't covered under insurance..]Greg,Good dig, I'd recommend against the heat shrink, as PB discovered, it prevents a thorough inspection.regards,Nick.

[Greg Mitchell]

Pete,I had no trouble at all making up a cable jig for the correct lenghts of cable and fittings, using a centre to centre measurement, with written info via emails, given me by Larry Neal. I had never made a cable end before.It was going to cost me more to have Tamar Marine do my cables than it cost to buy the Economy Swagger and the cable cutting pliers.Then again, I'd rather do most things for myself....these so called experts and tradesmen are prone to do crap work and expect top dollar for it.I'm sure your lady is far more capable than you give her credit for Pete. I dont have a medical degree and it wasn't a problem for me. Let's face it this gyro stuff is not rocket science. My point of posting this info which I was privy to over 12 months ago was to point out that in some cases only one swage is required and in other two or more are required, dependant on the type of cable and the type of sleeve being used. Simple as that!Due to my isolation web training/research and development info sourcing is one of my few options and has served me pretty well thus far.Mitch.www.thebutterflyllc.comA thinker sees his own actions as experiments and questions--as attempts to find out something. Success and failure are for him answers above all. - Friedrich Nietzsche

[Greg Mitchell]

Nick,I too would not suggest using heat shrink, though others do it. As stated I initially was supplied with Alum sleeves, so I doubled up. Later I got a batch of zinc coated copper sleeves, so they can be installed one up.......having said that for the extra amount of weight, I'd still double. SIDE BAR....my frame parts are at the powder coater. Next week I start bolting my new Butterfly together. Some of these parts I made myself. Mitch.www.thebutterflyllc.comA thinker sees his own actions as experiments and questions--as attempts to find out something. Success and failure are for him answers above all. - Friedrich Nietzsche

[asra]

Hey MitchGood to hear you are nearly back in the air again,Bob at ROPE AND CHAIN has got cable ,thimbles ,copper and stainles sleeves and he is reasonably priced.He also made up my 2 into 1 throttle and choke cables for me.Peter Adams

[asra]

Guys, don't take this too much to heart, however it must be said.Nicholas,"Oh, ye of little faith.. not trusting your wife??" Nic,I would not trust anyone that does not know what there talking about or not know what there doing, particually with Aircraft.Greg,I will repeat myself yet again, as I said on the 24/12/2005 if you understand the "principle" of correct swaging, then you understand why the cable breaks before the swage fails, as this is part of a trade, it comes under the catergory of the "need to know basis"."It was going to cost me more to have Tamar Marine do my cables than it cost to buy the Economy Swagger and the cable cutting pliers."The present labour cost to have the work done professionaly here is $30 as they are supplying the material, bargain."these so called experts and tradesmen are prone to do crap work and expect top dollar for it."Greg, you are making an unqualified statement and judgement that the people in the "trade" do "crap work" and "charge too much", I have never found this to be the case in a lifetime of being around tradesmen, tradesmen are taught proper principles etc, and I am not talking about the so called self named tradesmen with no formal training, Greg you must be careful about making these statements as the implication is that you know better than them."I'm sure your lady is far more capable than you give her credit for Pete. I dont have a medical degree and it wasn't a problem for me."No, I would give no credit to anyone that has not been taught and actually done it, especially where Aircraft are concerned, Greg I cannot comment on your swaging abillities, I have not seen your workmanship. I quite agree, it's not rocket science, however, it is expected that the people doing the work actually know what their doing, after all we are talking Aircraft, and especially if it is commercial.All the best.Pete Barsden

[asra]

Just a minor point on heat shrink tubing - if you use the clear stuff you've got the best of both worlds, you're protected from those spiky ends, and you can see/feel the tail has not slipped during preflight.John EvansThink logically and do things well, think laterally and do things better.

[asra]

I follow the Pete Barsden principle these days. I have hand swagged a yacht's rigging in days gone by, but I must be getting more cautious because I get my rudder cables done by my local yachting chandlery who use hydraulic presses. Cost's very little in the scale of things and looks a quality result.Pete