Another New Generation Rollover

[Brian]

Alans post is from his heart and you can"t get any deeper than that. . End of quote from Tony.Yep, spot on !! I could write a book on instructors but reality is this, we are very light on in this department so

[Brian]

I disagree Brian.Aussie Paul. Thats the great thing about a democracy PB

[aussie_paul]

Thats the great thing about a democracy PB

[MadMuz]

I have often laughed at noobs on the US forums, one of their first posts being "How many hours do I have to do to become a CFI?" .... and "Hi, I"m Fred and I want to build a turbine, twin rotor, 4 seat machine and want to become a CFI, what is the best way of going about it... or who can I pay?"People see gyros and tend to think of them as toys, easy to learn and a breeze to become an instructor....yet a lot of the time, they have only seen gyros on tv or youtube and have no idea about them at all, but it doesn"t stop them wanting to become an instant instructor.I totally agree with Birdy about the rotor handling being a major part of flying a gyro, and thanks to Ian M. and the team, hopefully people will not entirely skip the rotor handling as part of their training in the future, as it seems to have been skipped in the recent past. Yes the colossus class full cabin machines would be all but impossible to hand spin, but any of the euro tubs (the ones with clearance to tail and prop) should be easy if the guy in the back can spin them while the driver is taxying (in an emergency/broken prerotator)I also agree with whoever said that realistically, an instructor cant teach you every aspect of gyro flying,

[mad max]

My recent experiance has been training a student/owner in a caladus. At first I wanted to pre-rotate to 220 rpm and "take it easy" up to takeoff RPM which I did. The student then advised me that the manual said to go straight to full power. I reluctently did that but observed the rotor RPM during the procedure. I advised my student that I was uneasy with that procedure and there was a fine line between a successful takeoff and a disaster. The student then went solo and had many a fine flight until one day he was a bit slow getting the stick back and 'all hell broke loose'.

[Brian]

Thanks PB, I value all thoughts. We know that there have been a number of these type of incidents that Max describes that haven"t been reported so the actual number of these rotor management incidents could be reasonably alarming. I encourage anyone that stuffs up to do a report so that ASRA can hopefully respond in a way to help other pilots avoid these very expensive but avoidable incidents.

[mad max]

I know I"ve told my story three times but if it saves one pilot not destroying his craft or worse it"s worth it. I agree with Waddles making a positive move. I still believe the blades are spun by black magic birdy ;D

[RickE]

It would be interesting to know if any of you fellas that have had rollovers could share the circumstances around the incident. I know of a couple recent rollovers that was caused by the nose wheel not being straight when it touched. I also know of a couple of incidents where spinning rotors while taxying have been wrapped around obstacles.The incident that started this thread involved a pilot that has been flying for quite a few years but lately only gets to fly a couple of times a year and Im sure would be the first to agree that he just f#*?ed up.While I agree wholeheartedly that rotor management is the most important part of the training regime and while ever the rotors are spinning you are still flying I don"t believe that taxying with rotors spinning in order to build up rotor rpm is necessary in the new machines with powerful pre-rotators. in my opinion having a powerful pre-rotator avoids this potentially dangerous part of our sport. I will concede that over rough ground taxying with rotors spinning is better for your rotors / hub bar etc but I would have my stick fully forward and into wind if any. I do believe that teaching the build up of rotor rpm during the take-off roll is a compulsory step in learning to fly gyros and would never advocate the procedure of going straight to full power.Getting back to the original thread, if anyone knows how to teach people not to forget to pull the stick back on take-off I would be interested to hear.There"s quite a few cab style gyros between Newcastle and Sydney Birdy, if your ever down this way Im sure there would be a few of us that would love to see how you would do it. I have the greatest respect for you guys but I feel I had to have my say.

[birdy]

Went past syd this mor,n Rick, not more than 2000km off me track. But, to learn how its dun, just ask your instructer, ..............., ho, hang on, if he hasnt already showed how,........., never mind. The RAF cab isa big lump of a cab, and its not hard to armstrong the 30"ers on it.Even if your two broken legs and one eye missn means its phisicaly imopssable, you should still be tort how, just by getn them over the hump with the spinner (60/70rpm, as you would with the armstrong) and usen wind or slow taxi to get um up.This sorta fiddlen with rotors opens up a wide world of understandn and feel of how rotors autorotate, without risk to man or machine.Bout the teachn people not to forget, thats impossable. Noone is imune from head farts.BUT, if the normal procedure your tort means theres zip room for error, the chances of forgetning, or being slightly out of tune are that much greater.If the stick is normaly on the backstop befor you crack the throttle and start your roll, then his sorta incident would not happen, coz your memory and instinct will have it on the backstop already.

[Brian]

You asked a good question Rick & the simple answer is that you cant teach for 100% compliance all & every time.Comparing say a single engine FW to these modern gyros that need to have the takeoff process in the correct order with a particular number on the rotor rev counter, the FW is just way so much easier to get off the ground...& back down the ground back to the parking bay by the length of the strip.Obviously, repetition done time & time again should eventually win but blind freddy can see that this procedure we have for gyros is fraught with danger if its not done correctly.As far as instructors go, I remember very well my FW instructor saying as he handed me my unrestricted ticket that this was a license to be able to go away & learn & learning I"m still doing, hopefully, by the time I get to 100 I might have learnt something

[WEST OZ FLYER]

Getting back to the original thread, if anyone knows how to teach people not to forget to pull the stick back on take-off I would be interested to hear.Rick, that is what hand starting or slow prerotating rotors is all about. They need their stick back from the start for it to work. How far back? How long is a piece of string? That"s rotor management in it"s early stages.I don"t believe that taxying with rotors spinning in order to build up rotor rpm is necessary in the new machines with powerful pre-rotators. in my opinion having a powerful pre-rotator avoids this potentially dangerous part of our sport. I will take a low speed blade flap trying to wind up the blades than a high speed one any day. I am surprised that no one has been killed yet from these high speed blade flaps. They have enough energy to pick you up and turn you over diving you in to the ground. Most of these speeds will be in excess of 40 knots. If the stick is normaly on the backstop befor you crack the throttle and start your roll, then his sorta incident would not happen, coz your memory and instinct will have it on the backstop already.Birdy, I wonder if taking the micro switch out of the rotorhead to allow full backstick prerotation would help here. My theory is that at 200rrpm full backstick prerotating, if the brakes were released and nothing else changed the engine speed to airspeed to rrpm ratio would be reasonably close after 5 or so seconds then everything would marry in and the prerotation can stop, autorotation can continue on to proper flight routine. This way everything just flows. When I was super green I was wondering if the book method was a good way. Seems as that it is to close to the egde for success.

[Disco]

I second west oz.

[RickE]

Magni have flexible pre-rotator shafts which allow for full back stick pre-rotation which I agree is a good idea. From memory I think they pre-rotate to 130 and then finish off pre-rotation with stick fully back.

[MadMuz]

if anyone knows how to teach people not to forget to pull the stick back on take-off I would be interested to hear.This is where the entire question lays..... to apply takeoff power without the stick in the correct position (Notice how I didn"t say FULL power with FULL back stick) would indicate to me that the driver does not have an understanding of the machine.... sure he/she might parrot off a checklist or do what they were told by the instructor.... but they obviously don"t comprehend WHY they must do it.....People need to be taught the WHY as well as the how IMO

[birdy]

Sandgroper, ever since i heard years ago that these euro tubs will chop their tails of with low rrpm and full backstick, and had spinners that could spin to close to flight rrpm, but only with the stick full forward i thort WTF???Why?Theres no point ina 300 rpm spinner, if its no more effective at shortening the roll than a 150 rpm machine.This sorta crap comen from educated engineers makes me feel like a f*** brain sergin. >I wouldnt hesitate to pull that hole systm out and build it proper, with no need for the switch.If your go,n to build a 300rrpm spinner, at least do it so you can actualy use it.But you asked " i wunder if taken the switch out"?.Buggered if i know mate, wot machine you talkn bout?