home manufactured rotors?? what do you guys think?

[asra]

Michale :that statement borders on pure prejudice ! You are intitled to your opinion ofcorse, but think about what you said...and where Avaition came from in the first place....... Graeme : thats 75% of having a gyro to me.... Do it yourself.... after all its a Hobby of sorts...a pastime so to speak.... its not for continual use, its for good weather only .... heck its a toy in the united states ! down in your neck of the woods they still work the gyros fer a living ! .... and because of that there are more people down there that will actually get their hands dirty with their gyro ! ..... here in the U.S. there is a few people that like to brag that they built their own gyro ( with store bought parts )and a bigger bunch that is trying to stop everyone else from working on their own gyro for fear of them killing themselves .... ....I dunno' Perhaps I have alot more fathe in my fellow man.... individually most people are fairly sharp , unless they lived in an office all their life and had no interaction with anyone else.... still even those, pick it up rather fast ! after all a gyro is not that complicated ! it don't get much simplier than a gyro ! , sure there is some rotor Dynamics that will make your eyes water to look at the formulias discribeing the forces involved... but when push comes to shove and your flying along at 200ft you don't have to be a rocket scientest to understand a gyro !.... now there are a few things that without a doubt are quite complicatedabout a gyro's behaviour. but for the MOST PART...... GYROS ARE SIMPLE ! and if one fella can build a set of rotorblades out of plywood and spare parts ...you know their not near as techinical as people lead you to believe........ In a rotor all you realy care about is 2 things.... its striength so it don't come appart when spinning, or brake underits own weight when stopped ...and the shape of the airfoil.... you want the airfoil shape to stay an airfoil shape even at full speed...... those two things are the most important consideration when a Rotor is considered.... the other stuff like ballance , tracking and such like are Preformance derived.... and even store bought rotors veri greatly in preformance .....with that being said Any bloke can make a shape like an airfoil if they have seen a picture of one ..... and as for makeing one strong enough to not come appart... when in doubt make it a bit stronger and you'll never have any problems ! ...... so where is the problem of makeing a rotor blade ???? people have carved rotorblades out of pine and spruce boards for decades.... if you have a hand-plane you can do it too.... just take away all wood that don't look like a rotor blade . setting one up properly will be a challenge but obviously it can be done ! Graeme I have no doubt in my mind that in a weeks time you could machine yourself a Rotor-head , (if it took that long ) it may take a few trys but you could do it !Sooooo much FEAR has been pumped into people from others that you can't do it because its technically advanced......... bulloney ! perhaps if you never ever picked up a screw driver in your life then yah, perhaps you should try to build something a bit easier FIRST ! but that is the crux of the whole thing here .... not everyone has the same building skills ! some will take an hour to drill a hole in a cheek plate. while others will have the entire cheekplate mounted in an hour ...from scratch ! ...... and then some people can spell and others can't .... some can express themselves great and others can't Some care.... and some Cant ! ehehhehehehe anyway ..... tain't dat hard people ! if you doubt yourself then learn the skills before you attempt it ...because it can kill you.... ! .....c ya !Bob......... " Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

Greame,I do not wish to appear to be harsh here, however, do you think people like Jack Allen, Gerry Goodwin, Rob Petrony, Geoff Henly-Smith, Bert Larkin, myself etc who have spent thousands of hours of developing, building and testing and thousands and thousands of dollars to get to our individual stages of development are just going to show you how to do it, and cut our own throats financialy and timewise, I don't think so, I believe all the present manufactures would welcome you to start to design, and outlay great amounts of your money, and hopefully test to a successful conclusion and then join our ranks, and maybe even able to supply blades (Rotor System)to a very-very-very limited market, this is reality, all the best.Pete Barsden

[asra]

Pete. You left a lot of name off your list that can and have built rotors that are all willing to teach someone else. As for Bert Larkin, well he was always willing to teach me anything he could when I lived up near him. There was nothing selfish about that man, he is a real gentleman. The others you mentioned I have not personaly meet. Maybe from how you describe them I don't want too.It's just me I supose, I'm willing to help anyone who asks. I don't need to join any ranks, I'm happy where i am thankyou very much.Graeme.

[Des Garvin]

To all the rotor blade manufactures listed by Pete, I have only one question, " Will you be passing on your knowledge on at the apropriate time when you can not physically do it your selves?" I believe it will be a total waste of your knoweledge and hard spent & costly time should you choose not to pass your knoweledge on. You should be rewarded through a royalty as other designers/ manufacture's are. The gyro movment in Aust is benifiting now from all of you desginers/manufactures so it will be up to the sport as a whole to support this.What am I saying? You need apprentiships going on before it is to late. Just my thoughts for what they are worth.What you focus on grows. Des Gravin

[telf]

When the time comes for these guys to get out of the business, it is logical that they might sell their equipment and skills on to someone. After all, it is a business.telfFlying - The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. (Douglas Adams-The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

[asra]

Exactly my point.... you guys are Still thinking its way too complicated for individuals to do themselves..... in reality its nothing anywhere that !for $35.00 you can build your own rotors that will cost arround $150 .00 to $200.00 ..... how much money would that save YOU ... if your mechanically inclined enough to build your own gyro you can handle makeing the rotorblades ! REALY !!!!!.....so as long as you continue to think the rotors are just too SPECIAL.... there will be individuals that will capatilize on your outlook ! and make them for you and sell them to you at a hefty profet ! say $1200.00 a set for the cheepest ones I have seen.... all the way up to $2000.00+ a set..... not to mention the hub bars that is just a hunk of metal..... I made my own hub bar and it works fine.... its not rocket science guys ! heck a motorcycle is more advanced technoligy wize than a gyro !but then thats my opinion..... each to their own ! c ya !Bob....." Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

Gentlemen,The message I'm trying to get through is this..........any manufacturer of any product that invests large amounts of time and money is not going to just "give" it away, as there is a lot of money in material, dies etc that has to be recouped, and hopefully at the end a small profit, as I said before, the Gyro scene is a very, very, very small market and as such employing apprentices is out of the question.Greame, the story I have been told (I don't know it's authenticity) is that Bert Larkin is no longer building Rotor Systems commercially, if this is so then I would suggest that you contact him and ask him your question/s.Des, I'm in a unique situation, having been retired and on Commonwealth super for the past ten (10) years I'm not dependent on any money made through Rotors manufacturing, I knew that when I started it was going to be a very long and very expensive learning curve, to fill in my retirement days, after designing I had to have three dies made at great expense, I will never see them, I will never own them in the true sense of the word (I can't take them away) and if they are not used in three (3) years their melted down, the only way to circumnavigate the great die expense is to buy 30,000kg over 24 months, with three dies this amounts to 90,000kg of extrusion, not being a Kerry Packer this is completely out of the question, however I still had to buy the "minimum" of each extrusion.......three quarters of a tonne filling my storage shed.Having said all this, I now make the offer.....if "anyone" is interested, and is not working, and has considerable time on their hands I will show them all that I know on the subject........Die designing, die acquisition, Jig tables designing and manufacturing, the composite work required (temperature and timing), lathe machining, Mill machining, Drilling Tapping and reaming, how to set up the equipment and useage for Pacivating, how to set up the equipment and useage for Anodizing, correct adhesives and the usages (temperature and timing), design and manufacture of "cureing" oven, Pacivating drying oven, profile stands, Keying, the one hundred and thirty three (133) specialized tools manufactured to complete the various tasks required, cordwise balancing, spanwise balancing, Hub-Bar manufacturing, coning, underslinging, stringing tools and their usage, Tang and Tanglettes laser cutting, variable pitch pillar block design and manufacture, Rotor system balancing equipment and their use, Rotor System pitching equipment and their usage (in degrees-Minutes and seconds)and finally the all important documentation of all the above.Now the question I ask is this............having learnt all the above, what are you going to do with it?, I can see only four(4) practical senarios(1) someone who has been down the above path bequeaths his knowledge and tools/machinery/equipment/extrusions to you.(2) You buy someone out.(3) You go down the very expensive path as above.(4) You buy your Rotor System from a current manufacturer and be greatful that you dont have to go down his path.As long as there are Gyroplanes, some one will take up the task of rotor manufacture, this could be you.All the best...Pete Barsden

[Brian]

Very well said Pete!Brian

[Des Garvin]

Hi Pete and all, My line of questioning in my last post has been answered a lot better than I expected, by Pete Barsden, thanks Pete.Now my turn[] I have seen the work and dedication that Pete has put into his rotors, Pete has one down fall and that is "he is a perfectionist in his workmanship." Now I have never seen the other blade manufacturers in operation, though judging from the end results of the rotors I have seen they are of a similar perfectionist nature.So should any person decide to take Pete or any other blade or component manufacturer up on the offer to buy them out you will require that perfectionist quality, do you have it.For those who have never seen Pete's workshop it is a site that he should be proud of. I know I am in or every time I enter it. Go on Pete take a pic from the door and post it to show those interested just what you have achieved.OK this is not advertising it is showing just what goes into the making of rotor blades. Now I will go back to my lurking.[8D]What you focus on grows. Des Gravin

[Brian]

Just for what it is worth, I would not buy a set of rotors from "anyone". The person I buy rotors from has been in business for some time and has a reputation of producing very good rotors that have the performance !!As far as pricing goes, we definately get good value here as Sportcopter blades aknowledged as the best the USA guys produce is around the $6000 mark landed here. We can buy a similiar performing or better rotor for half the price. [Note, I didnt say hub bar as I think Sportcopter might have the hub bar answer!]Brian

[asra]

We seem to have two diametrically opposed points of view on this subject - very healthy!But let's go back to basics. We are entitled to build the "custard &jelly aeroplane" PROVIDED it is designed properly.There is nothing particularly magic about "aircraft quality" materials and components. For excample, I would much prefer to fly on one contempory ignition system than two aircraft magnetos! My view is that two magnetos are not enough - Jabiru have a much better system.I believe that the real issue here is DESIGN. Unfortunately this appears to have been lacking in some rotors, I have seen little evidence of proper calculatiuons to justify some of our rotor designs, and the fact that we are now seeing hub bar failures is evidence of this. In reality it seems that anyone can set themselves up as a rotor manufacturer, ignore the proper engineering advice given to us many years ago by the then Department of Civil Aviation, and commence selling to the gullible public.I would particularly take issue with those who claim that gyros are over engineered, so often this just plain wrong, as Factors of Safety have been ignored, and consquently seriously eroded.Perhaps the design of all critical components should be submitted to a panel of people with the ability to assess them properly and make a factual report. While ASRA does not want to become a design bureau coroner activity may force is in this direction.John EvansThink logically and do things well, think laterally and do things better.

[asra]

to quote ya ... "I would particularly take issue with those who claim that gyros are over engineered, so often this just plain wrong, as Factors of Safety have been ignored,"That statement is so very true here in the USA. where the laws are so Rediculas that the laws them selves usher in Unsafe designs ...And the biggest culpret causeing this is the weight law as I see it !its very hard if not impossable to make a Safe aircraft that won't crumple up like tin-foil given the weight restriction of 250lbs .... this indangers the PILOTS ..no one else it benifits No one.... it Helps no one ..yet it is LAW..and the logic is its less weight so if you crash into a house their will be less dammage ! ... while your NOT supposed to fly arround any houses at all .... ... the lack of Logic is stagering ! yet our Gyro clubs and such support the FAA's lack of inteligence in this mater .... the gyros Sold now will crumple on impact almost certainly injuring the pilot their not strong enough to withstand a rough landing without brakeing of wront wheels or other major components... there are a few manifactures that still presist in the lack of an HS from the last I hurd ... which seams realy Odd indeed ! ..... No sir ! there is Nothing in the world like crawling into a Ultralight gyro to give you the feeling of a Loosie goosie acident waiting to happen ! and this Doesn't need to be this way ! they can be built safe ! and strong ! but not with the weight restrictions imposed .... its silly ! ......My opinion tiz all. C ya Bob....... " Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "