Plastic Seat Tanks

[gyroo]

T-Bird,Our membership fatality rate is not connected to the suggested gross under-reporting of flying hours, because many of those people who reportedly rack up about 1000 hours per year mustering aren"t current ASRA members (although probably 99% have been members during their training).For an organisation with about 400 members, 2 deaths a year is 0.5% fatality rate, 3 is 0.75%, etc. From a safety perspective, NO fatality is acceptable.I own seat tanks. I have previously written that seat tanks are the lightest weight configuration possible, because the weight of the seat is also the weight of the fuel tank, whereas with separate seats and fuel tanks the weight naturally greater. Seat tanks are very seldom full at the time of any accident and so therefore the seat can deform under impact g-loads cushioning the pilot to a certain extent. They also usefully place both pilot and fuel very close together usually just a little forward of the rotor thrust vector, making it easier to do weight and balance calculations.BUT - the tank vents, quantity tubes or outlets do often leak immediately after accidents, and leaking splits and penetrations have also been noted. As Murray Barker has said, investigators sometimes only encounter blobs and pools of melted polyethylene and sagging and part-melted aluminium with bent keels, masts and pretzeled rotor blades protruding from the ghastly mess.Someone in this organisation has to be continually reviewing safety issues, and that"s me. You seem to be alleging that I am trying to bring in "stricter unnecessary rules" relating to seat tanks?

[t-bird]

Hi MarkI stand to be corrected but I am sure that CASA will not split gyro accidents between members and non-members.Accidents are reported per 100 000 flying hours and not by number of members.The mustering and other pilots are ASRA

[gyroo]

OK T-Bird,To clarify - only 2 musterers have been killed in the last 11 years: Czislowski 2004 at Thargomindah and Driscoll 2012 at Bollon (both outback QLD). The 2005 fatality was hub-bar failure, the 2012 was helmet blowing off then through the prop dislodging a prop blade at ultra low level. The remainder of fatalities in that period have been recreational gyroplane users and instructors and students.An Australian gyroplane fatality rate has never been worked out either by ASRA or CASA because it is widely accepted that the known gross under-reporting of actual hours flown skews any attempt at statistical analysis so badly that it becomes meaningless.The perception in the minds of many members of the public that gyroplanes are dangerous is historical and comes simply from occasional but constant reporting in the media that a person or people have been killed in one, coupled with a probable bias against them because they often look spindly and undoubtedly "home made". Gyros occupy a fringe niche in the aviation world, with many other recreational and general aviation people looking down their noses at us. None of this bias against gyros comes from any rational analysis of fatalities per hundred thousand hours flown because this can"t be reliably done.The point I have been labouring is that a fatality, any fatality, is one too many, and that ASRA needs to be constantly reviewing gyroplane safety as well as emphasizing good training and maintaining currency.Why I said it would be legally unworkable to force manufacturers to only sell to ASRA members is because ASRA - as a private volunteer organization - has no legal capacity to regulate or restrict the activities of entities other than within its own current paid up membership. And, even with people who are paid up members we need to be careful so as not to act in restraint of trade. About the only "big stick" ASRA has got is the capacity to either accept or reject a gyroplane put up for initial registration. Once a gyro is on the register, ASRA can"t on a whim refuse annual re-registration. To de-register any gyro we really have to make a case of an imminent risk to flight safety.You can rest assured that if any gyroplane hub bar separates in flight again like in 2004 at Thargomindah, that results in a fatality, ASRA will be told within hours by ATSB. The ASRA Board has resolved that even if such an accident involves an unregistered gyro and a non-member, that we will still go and investigate because that type of accident might have widespread implications to the ASRA fleet. On the other hand, if an unregistered gyro flown by a non-member fatally hits power lines, then it is highly unlikely that ASRA will investigate.Therefore, you needn"t be too concerned about the accident rate per 100K hours. If a relevant fatality occurs we"ll find out about it.Mark R

[t-bird]

Hi MarkDoes this make senseNon ASRA Muster pilot’s hub bar fail and ASRA members have to pay for the investigation ?The same members who paid for the investigation

[birdy]

Where are you tbird, i mite take a short holiday?

[tonydenton]

some times mark when you explaining all the goings on .... it sounds worrying , but then eventually you come up with the basic explainations and it all makes sense. so thank you.

[MadMuz]

some times mark when you explaining all the goings on .... it sounds worrying , but then eventually you come up with the basic explainations and it all makes sense. It is Marks lawyer training shining thru.... first they scare the cr@p out of you and make you really depressed.... then they simplify it to show there is a way out.... then you don"t cringe so much at the bill you get

[t-bird]

Hi BirdyIt would be a pleasure to meet you. Do you replace your hub bar at 500 hours ?

[MilesW]

Do you replace your hub bar at 500 hours ?What makes you think he should replace the hub bar at 500hrs?Miles

[t-bird]

Ad 2005.01

[MilesW]

Ad 2005.01You are quoting a cancelled AD, which by the way, does not state anywhere that hub bars have to be replaced at 500 hours. Nor does AD 2008.01 which supercedes it.Miles

[t-bird]

At 500 hours non destructive testing and 800 hours replace.It is not worth doing testing do everyone replace at 500 hours.Yes and it is Ad 2008.01 I have missed that 2005.01 replaced 2005.05

[t-bird]

AD 2008.01 are applicable to

[MilesW]

AD 2008.01 are applicable to

[t-bird]

Hi Milessec 105 refers to the testing of the hub bar.The first part makes it applicable to all gyros.