MT to Xenon comparisons off the USA forum.

[Greg Mitchell]

...Xenon problems were minor (door, prerotator) and more or less in the teething period, ironed out in the meantime.Xenon has no fatal accident on the account, 10 incidents after whichall tthe frames where rebuild and fly again.MT has 23 fatalities under their belt, 54 accidents and incidents,most of them frame loss. PTKay posted the above on the yank forum.

[jeff b]

Hi mate,How many Xenons are there flying compared to numbers of MT"s? What"s the comparison of annual flying hrs between them? Has there been a MT problem identified or is it pilot error in these stats? We don"t want to see anyone get hurt. Thanks.

[Thomas]

thank you for this update on the MTO,S I think we should call them "Widow maker"It has got me wondering how

[Greg Mitchell]

G"Day Jeff,Like I said Jeff, words are like stats and vice versa.I happened upon the thread on the yank forum. I"ve known of the fella who posted for some years.He and others believe the Xenon to be the best side by side enclosed machine on the planet. Excellent.I know some people who own MT"s and I"m not hearing them claim the same about the MT"s in tandem configuration.Compare MT stats to Magni stats and be surprised.But for Paul to intimate door/s flying off in flight is only a minor problem addressed during the early production stage, to my mind trivialises those incident/accidents. he claims no accidents for the Xenon. This I know to be untrue. Perhaps a slip of words or an oversight on Pauls post.The 23 deaths is frightening given reported volume of sales or not. Sure I know everything is relative but those stats are sounding more and more like the Raf 2000 saga. Not forgeting for one moment that the original Calidus had a problem opening the hatch when it rolls on to one side. Yes I know they fixed that. But that resulted in a woman getting some nasty burns from memory. I"ll try and find the pics.Yes I mentioned Butterfly"s, why? Why not! . I"d be surprised if there are 650 odd MT"s but let"s say there is.

[Greg Mitchell]

G"Day Thomas,Ole mate Bones is the Xenon importer.I am the Australian/NZ Butterfly importer. We also have rights to manufacture the T tail as seen on the Monarch and Tall tails such as on the Golden Butterfly tandem. We can sell them here in OZ and NZ. Only way to get one of these tails in the USA is to buy a kit from Larry Neal over there. We manufacture a front strut. Pump sticks and Instrument pods.Mitch.

[asra]

Found thisvery Interestinghttp://www.xenongyroplanes.com/

[GraemeMonro]

Found thisvery Interestinghttp://www.xenongyroplanes.com/Pretty good find Sam, but there is one hell of a lot more to that topic from other point"s of view, mainly about the bloke who posted that bit.Always two sides to a story.Graeme.

[Brian]

There are many accidents /incidents that go un reported and I reckon there wouldnt be too many gyro pilots who wouldnt know of something that happened that wasnt reported. These incidents /accidents can vary from minor to a total wreck.Unfortunately, one type of gyro featured

[PTKay]

But for Paul to intimate door/s flying off in flight is only a minor problem addressed during the early production stage, to my mind trivialises those incident/accidents. he claims no accidents for the Xenon. This I know to be untrue. Perhaps a slip of words or an oversight on Pauls post.Hi Greg, I haven"t posted here for a while, but I feel it necessary to respond.I am celebrating now 5 years following the development of the Xenon.On the very first flight with Raphael in 2006 in Modlin I expressed my concern about the door construction.Raphael is a "weight freak", he tries to make everything as light as possible, the door was light, too light...Long story short, the very light door flying away never caused any serious damage to the aircraftcausing a forced landing, not to speak about crash=accident.As to the definition accident/incident. The "Xenon in the pont" was extremely overloaded, never took off properly and more or less "air taxied" into the water at the end of the runway. For me it is a runway overrun, usually handled as incident. The gyro fliped over in the water, but was almost intact. So, you decide: accident or incident. The case of the broken mast was a taxiing incident, but you can of course call it accident.The guy was taxiing with the rotor spinning, nobody knows exactly what happened and whythe rotor hit the grass, the mast broke, the rotor flew away leaving the cabin and pilot uninjured.The machine was repaired within few days. Accident or incident?The machine destroyed in Sweden run into a mole hill when taxiing, accident or incident?None of the Xenon 2 machines, factory build in Celier Aviaton factory in Poland was destroyedin the 10 incidents beyond repair. All of them are flying again.None of the Xenons 2 caught fire in any of the 10 incidents. The 23 deaths is frightening given reported volume of sales or not. Sure I know everything is relative but those stats are sounding more and more like the Raf 2000 saga. You are unfortunately right. Marketing over engineering. The MT manufacturer was originally ELA dealer, decided they can do better, did a copy of a copyand started huge marketing effort. Not forgeting for one moment that the original Calidus had a problem opening the hatch when it rolls on to one side. Yes I know they fixed that.No, they didn"t. I have seen the newest Calidus in Poland, I was willing to test fly it,but found out, that the problem has not been properly addressed.So I am waiting for them to do their homeowrk.Xenon, at least did their homework on the door, although the fault never had such dramatic result,like the Calidus fault.

[PTKay]

Has there been a MT problem identified or is it pilot error in these stats? The machine is very agile and unforgiving. Of course, you can call it "pilot error problem",but you have to ask the question, why the Butterfly and the Xenon do notinduce or support such errors...I would just remind you how RAF tried for years to blame everything on training and pilots...

[PTKay]

Pretty good find Sam, but there is one hell of a lot more to that topic from other point"s of view, mainly about the bloke who posted that bit.Always two sides to a story.Graeme.Graeme, thanks.SamL, I like the Kruza very much, but before you take the side of Rob Dubin,try to read the whole thread here:http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29098

[Greg Mitchell]

Hey PT,Thanks for expanding on previous comments made.I believed the Calidus had the "hatch trap" fixed, I did not realise it has not been properly addressed.I rolled my first gyro up into a ball at the end of a grass field 5 years ago. Tried to "horse" it off the ground before the blades were up to speed. Caught the tail wheel on two fences and cartwheeled/summersaulted 360 degrees into the deck, nose first.I unbuckled,

[jeff b]

That"s certainly an issue if you can"t get out of the Calidus if rolled on the side. I have the MTO sport, but I"ll ask what is/has happened to rectify that for the Calidus.I did alot of reseach and did not find any information that there is a known weakness or problem with the MTO airframe that contributed to these accidents.

[PTKay]

Greg, Jeff,I had the opportunity to directly compare Calidus and Xenon in Poland.Unfortunately, i was not brave enough to fly the Calidus. But I just started my Xenon training.More here, on the US forum:http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/sho...xenonRegarding the canopy, i"ll just quote myself:The canopy has still no emergency release mechanism.Even a simplest glider, which hardly will flip over by an incidentand has no fuel in the cabin, has such safety pins or bolts.

[Greg Mitchell]

I did not start this post to give the MT dealer a hard time. (I hear the new bloke is top shelf)I did not start this post to give Bones or Peg a hard time. (I consider Bones a Mate and not sure what I"ve done to **** Peg or Mark off.)I found the death rate appalling and simply extrapolated some numbers to quantify and compare.Butterfly got pounded from every direction when we started out.I had blokes telling me the CLT Butterfly was an old design and was very draggy and it had a mast like swiss cheese full of holes etc etc and on and on it goes. We made many changes to keep pace with and satisfy the ASRA requirements of the day. We put bigger engines in the gyros because that is what the blokes asked for and for what. :So yes I do take an opportunity to present our product in a better light than is cast here on the forum or discussed in the sheds and workshops of those "twits" that try to influence the market thru being a TA or an Instructor. > with a product to sell.Butterfly PPOed....dic-heads. ;DFly Safe and keep those rotors polished.