912 vs 912 s

[MadMuz]

Hot air type of carby heat as in Grummans/Cessnas that suck hot air off of the manifold are quite slow to clear ice initially, that is why when doing downwind checks the hot air is pulled on, so if on final you have to go around, the carb is already getting hot air and if you ask for full throttle, there is little chance of the carby having any ice. If you approach without the hot air on, then ask for full throttle (a go around) that is when ice is likely to instantly form in the right conditions. Having a poorly designed or weak carb heat system can actually help to create ice, which may not have occurred if it wasn"t installed, ie, warming the carb slightly with an oil heat transfer plate under the carb (or water warmed) may actually just heat up the carby nicely to create more ice. I personally prefer the hot air box/induction system like on small GA planes and believe that this setup bringing very hot air into the carb will have the best effect, but it has to be used properly (before it is needed/on approach) I think for us, to have a constant warmer plate under the carb AND a system to bring in hot air on demand would be the best bet, but the incoming air has to be hot, not just warm.... just warm may actually create a great environment for ice formation

[Brian]

The first part of the question is so very easy, the 100 hp version is the way to go. Yesterday I found myself at WOT, hit a sudden sink at low level during a hard downwind turn, had not a lot of options & the sink was severe. For a second or two, I could have used 200 hp !!

[birdy]

Nearing 3000 hours with the coolant manifold type, flown in eveythn from clean air to pissn down, and never hada ice issue.

[Disco]

Ever even felt the onset Birdy?

[MadMuz]

Correct me if I am wrong Birdy, but your area is pretty dry as opposed to humid mostly? People in humid areas would probably need more carb heat, more often?There are more than one type of ice too, the clear ice that lines and sticks to metal components, that can even stick a 2 stroke carby butterfly in one position or freezes up the needle.... this can be helped avoid by a warmed carby from an oil or water heat transfer plate under the carb, this type of ice can result in snapped throttle cables and severe sphincter moments when butterfly or slide is frozen in one place and the throttle is operated, but the type of ice that can just shut down an engine is the white frosty stuff that grows quickly in the throat of the carby in icing conditions, when going from closed or semi closed throttle to wide open and this actually blocks the carby.So, to be really covered, one of Birdies heat transfer plates under the carb fixes the solid type of ice to a great extent, but a good hot box or otherwise piping hot air off of the exhaust manifold takes care of the fluffy stuff generally. So, imo, if one flys in often humid places like coastal regions etc, having both systems would be ideal, but the hot air box setup has to be used in anticipation of being required as I said earlier, otherwise it will probably be too late once the engine starts coffing or showing other symptoms That is why on gyros, most people have the hot box lever next to the throttle, so on reduction of throttle, the hot air goes back with the throttle, on a go around, throttle forward (hot air still on) then when climbing successfully, shut down the hot air back to cold.Incidentally, having the hot air "just on a little bit" will probably cause icing to be real severe.... so either hot air on fully (and as hot and efficient pick up point as possible) or completely off is probably safest.

[birdy]

I did get ice very easily with the 80hp Disco.Didnt take lng before i riged up a warm air intake, never iced again.Only ever flown with the coolant heaters on the 100hp, so iv never had ice, but there wasa bloke who did go down only 100 miles from ere witha 100hp, no heater, got ice.( twice in one day)Only ice iv ever had since the coolant heater is on me knuckles and a coupla times on the rotors, but never carb.To be honest, i was sceptical bout the effectiveness ofa heated manifold after the carb too, but the poms reconed it worked, and so far, it dose ere too.Muz, 56" in one summer wet enuf for you?You only need a few seconds in the rong conditions and youv got ice.Iv been workn in belting rain, hot ( 48c)and cold(-10c),

[Disco]

Thanks Birdy.Now onto price.. There"s a second hand one on members market raaus for about 6 grand with 2000 hours. What should I look for? What"s going to cost majorly in repairs? Should I just buy new and I see them advertised for about 19k from the US.

[birdy]

Secondhand is always tricky.Even if it comes with very explicit details of maintainance, your still only go,n on the word of the bloke who wants your 6 grand.Sorry, blunt, but its true.If noone has layed a spanner onit, oil temp has been regulated, only ran quality syn oil, only burned premium fuel, theres no reason i wouldnt give him his 6k.Mine are at that time now, still as fresh as the day i bolted them in.If your lookn to do more n 500 hours a year, new is the way to go.No idea wot they cost.My neck depends on them not stopn, so coins dont figure init.

[MadMuz]

I think Floods has 912s for about $26kIf you are looking at a second hand one, make sure it has a proper, serious, genuine log book that shows any mods/repairs/faults fixed. Maybe run the serial numbers by Floods, see if they have seen it for any repairs? (that shouldn"t cost much) : Check if the electrics have been upgraded or still original, evidently the 2 black boxes are $800 or so each (Flood factor added) Find out the casting numbers and find out exactly how old it is, evidently some cases, not the oldest, but a certain batch had problems with cracking/weeping cases under the inlet manifold. Look at machine it came out of or other machines the seller might have, see if they are well maintained or not, to see if you can see a level of care/maintenance the owner may have had with it.I personally would be very dubious about a second hand Rotax 4 banger (or any motor at all for that matter) from another forum unless you know its real history.... ie, if you trust/know the seller. If you cant find out its genuine history of service/maintenance/accident/genuine hours...... and see it run.... I would be very worried. You don"t know what it has been thru or how it has been treated....

[Disco]

Got one for sale birdy? You always run good syn oil and run premium fuel?

[IanM]

Hi Disco,Don"t buy one which has been run all its life on Avgas.

[Disco]

Thanks Ian. Pretty sure Birdy doesn"t have lead in his desert.

[birdy]

Ill have one due for retirement by xmas Disco, if you can wate that long.And yeh, only lead out ere is in me pencle, and that aint much.26k for a 912??Hell, i must be a favered customer.

[MadMuz]

How much did you pay for yours birdy? Do you know the going prices? I know that a 582 with everything is just short of $13k, I emailed Floods a month or so back.... $6,132 for the motor.... the rest adds up to $12,890 or so, plus GST ROTAX

[Tsemler]

It depends on when you buy thru floods also, I missed out on what they had in stock, So had to buy one of next shipments (just after the dollar started dropping) and ended up paying an extra $1500, just the engine with oil tank it was $22712 so budget about $26 all up, that"s what it has cost me for a running setup including Kool prop, lithium battery, proper aircraft wiring, oil hose etc...All i can say is shop around a bit too, you can get the same starter solenoid that Rotax sells for $125 to $170 depends where you look on the net, you can actually get for $37.41