Shape of tail feathers

[Tim]

Too many questions to answer at once Ted. The rotors do not supply any rotational torque to the airframe unless the bearing starts to sieze. It does not appear to make any difference which way the rotors turn. "So to maximise stability should the tail feathers be 4 directional(full tail), rather than 3 directional (T tail)""Stability" is not the right word here. The main difference is in yaw and torque response during throttle changes. Cruising there is very little difference in any correctly set up effective rudder. Tim McClure

[asra]

Tim , like you said good training, experience will make for safe flying / landings. Just trying to get an idea of what I'm getting myself into before I make the big commitment.Reading the forum I've notice that when a newbie asks for advice on which gyro is best, the reply is.... by a cheap machine first incase you bend it ( reason for questions on roll overs etc. ) Is this fair comment or did these pilots have poor or no training years ago, and has training improved today , so as to make accidents in the first 50 hrs less likely. cheers,Phil

[Echo]

Phil, Is Rob Glenn's two seat training machine still at Parkes? Catch up with Daryl Gosper at the Aero Club , he will help you out & maybe take you flying . Ted, the Butterfly Gyro is the closest I've seen to a T tail , you would have to ask Mitch or Alan on its flying performance. Both my gyros that I built had tall tails , the 2nd built I moved the tail back 100mm. I have flown in Dave Stubberfields , its the same as mine except he has a conventional tail, I really didnt notice much difference. You are obviously thinking about improving gyros,which is good, but the current design ( including tractors like the Little Wing) has evolved from years of trial & error from pioneering builders/pilots . Having said that , if we didnt improve on what we have we would be still driving around in steam powered cars - hang on ,they burn coal , that means more work for me ......bring back the steam car !

[asra]

[asra]

Eric, I believe that Stan Foster's RAF has an upside down T tail, which appears to run in a mixture of clean and prop air. My concept of a t tail simply involves moving the stab up to a level just above his top hinge. Rather than oversizing the vertical fin as the tall tails are, one could oversize the stab Image Insert: 14.36 KBMurray may well be right in moving the tails back as the solution of increasing the moment potential. After all long shafted arrows will always fly straighter than the short bolts.Ted

[Echo]

Ted, Murray is always right..... If it wasnt for him I could not have built my first gyro.Your posts are confusing - have you flown a tall tail? -have you flown a conventional tail? - have you seen a Butterfly tail?Its not your 'concept' to move the stab up , there are plenty of flying examples already. Ross's post was spot on - enjoy clocking up your first hours & worry about new designs later when you have a greater understanding. Attending the Nationals is a great way to learn.

[asra]

Eric,Not enough hours left in my life to only do one thing at a time...Ross is definately NOT RIGHT on this issue.Ted

[asra]

TedHow did I get involved in this one????Anyway, the most important thing is to do the things that you enjoy, some enjoy flying others designing and building, some enjoy just having a chat about it.My first priority is to fly, as I enjoy this the most. See you at the next Nationals, and good luck with your training.RossB

[Greg Mitchell]

Righto Ted,Need some clarity here, you say Stan's tail is an up side down T tail and that you would simply move the HS up to the top of the vertical fin. Does this mean you would maintain the little vertical sections at the ends of the HS in the upright position, as they are now or would you invert them? You would need to ensure appropriate clearances, blade to tail to keep them vertical and this may mean bringing the tail in on a shorter keel. Might as well go a tall tail in that instance. Inverted not a problem. What your suggesting, I believe has already been done many times over, still all manner of configurations are worth discussing.The tail on my Butterfly and Allan's Monarch are not the same as the new T tail, (true T section airfoil shape) and Larry says this new tail out performs what we are currently running. Having said that Allan and I both like what we have, free flying tail, with HS mounted in the first third of the prop wash.I have no clue about this stuff but I understand the vertical fins on the ends of the HS are to add extra vertical plate area to counter yaw problems with raf, especially if doing a lot of flying with doors on. Open frame Butterfly has no need for such fixes. A partial pod on a Butterfly requires the fitment of a slightly longer keel section, longer moment arm, same tail. A fully enclosed Butterfly/Monarch, again the keel is longer than the std Butterfly and would carry a more traditional Vertical Fin and Rudder type set-up, with extra vertical fins.I understand you are without an instructor right at the moment and keen to use this time to research and play with ideas. I met Ross at Cooma and he is a good guy, we are all here to help if we can. Flyin is really what it's all about, wish I could get out and up, more often. I quoted some Pitcairn stuff on another of your posts. News Flash for me! Question: Who invented the pusher gyro? Hint, it wasn't Benson[:0]......'Back to the future' again.Like Eric said Ted, there are plenty of flying examples of just about anything you and I might conjure up, mind you we have made a few modest improvements to the Butterfly/Monarch, so there is always room for new ideas and sensible modifications.Chase the training and get airbourne, it's the best.[]Regards,Mitch.www.thebutterflyllc.com

[asra]

"Murray is allways right" ???? I think the exhaust fumes are leaking into the cab of your gyro Eric.M Barker

[asra]

Mitch, I would, but my trainer and his bird are out of action, so in the mean time I'll keep posting, and hoping for 'positive' information.Ted

[Echo]

Phil there seems to be some misunderstanding about my post refering to Daryl Gosper - he is not a gyro instructor , I never said he was. The last time I spoke with him he was considering getting his passenger carrying endorsement. He is a GA & ultralight instructor ( & a very good one). Hope you get some flying somehow. Cheers Eric

[Waddles]

Gidday All,My absence from this medium has been due to several circumstances, and it is not likely to improve until I retire.With reference to Ted's last post, I am his unairborne instructor due to a crankshaft failure in the RAF. Ted was onboard at the time. This is unfortunate for him along with others, but s*** happens, and he has been gracious enough to accept reality, and improve his knowledge base until such time as we can resume training.To my mind, the original question is largely academic. I guess the bottom line is what works, works, and who really cares why. The discussion relating to tall tails vs conventional will persist as long as gyros exist, and that will be forever.There appears to be a confusion between torque produced by the engine/prop combo, and the "P" effect which directly affects the vertical, and to some degree the horizontal tail surfaces, depending on their reltive position. There is an academic argument to support this effect. Suffice it to say, that during my ab initio fixed wing training, "P" effect was relevent specifically with relation to vertical tail surfaces. The effect on horizontal surfaces was not mentioned at all. Why is a gyro different? When I originally set up the RAF, it required a 2 degree rotor head offset to the left to counter the torque produced by the 3 blade prop/130 HP engine. I fitted a 4 blade prop with a 160 HP engine, and set it up the same. What has been the effect? Not sure. At times, with me or a student flying, the gyro immediately banks right on liftoff. Is this because of the torque effect, or the fact that the right handed pilot is naturally putting in some right stick at lift off? Whilst accepting this "flaw" in the early stages of training, laterly, the student must either expect this and apply the appropriate correction , or compensate with stick before liftoff. Right or wrong experts?My philosophy is, to primarily apply the control inputs that are necessary to make the gyro do what you want it to do. Finish. Don't worry too much about why these things happen at the time, because that takes your concentration away from your primary task of controlling the gyro.Unfortnately, Ted is not in a position to get the training required immediately, and therefore I feel that he needs to be tolerated and answered factually so that he can build his knowledge base for future reference.Thanks for your patience guys, and knock all you want. I've been attacked by experts.Fly safe.Waddles.

[asra]

Very well putRuss

[asra]