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  • #16
    Hi Brian,it would be good to get some of these Heli Mustering operators with an AOC to see the light and convert some of their fleet over to Gyros but that is not the main focus I would like to see.

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    • #17
      I would like to see someone do a review on the pre rotator that has done 500/ 1000 hours so we can see how they perform over the longer term. Havent even heard much in the way of feedback which is a bit dissapointing given there must be a number of machines out there getting good hours up plus its obvious to see that the spinner gets those rotors going very nicely which in the world of mustering is a very desirable thing when strips are usually short & rough!!I now have a shade over 800 hours over 2 machines. 300+ on one and nudging 500 on the other. I have always thought the prerotator would be a weak point so about the first spare I bought was a belt

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      • #18
        Yep,
        ..........

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        • #19
          ..........

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          • #20
            Howdy Miles,It most certainly is legally possible for a current AOC holder employing at least one CPL holder who also holds an ASRA pilot certificate to plonk that person into an ASRA registered gyroplane and use that for mustering in lieu of a helo. It hasn"t been "officially" done yet although rumors filter through that it is actually be being done on the sly by non-ASRA pilot certificate holders who alternatively fly Robbos or fixed wing. It will also be my distinct preference that if someone does come forward to ASRA and says I want to switch from Robbos to gyros, then I will want to liaise closely with CASA to make sure they are fully in the loop, and because what would be legally needed to dot all the "i"s" and cross all the "t"s" would be a supplementary Instrument granted to that particular organisation (these are relatively easy to negotiate). CASA issues supplementary Instruments to individuals, or operators or organisations quite regularly. A precedent has already been set because there"s one banner-towing mob in WA who switched over from VH-registered Super Cubs to commercial banner towing using trikes. That"s one example of a commercial AOC operator switching to a "recreational" aircraft.Remember also that the CAOs specifically allow even PPL holders to do aerial stock mustering, but implicit in that authorization is that their services can"t be billed out. I will concede that one practical impediment to switching from VH-registered machines over to gyros will be the attitude of the insurance industry, but that"s not a legal impediment. And, the insurance industry will sit up and take notice of a highly respected US manufacturer such as Sport Copter specifically developing the M912, so by no means will I agree that we have hit any sort of practical or legal "brick wall".Paul"s initiative concerning legitimizing illicit contract aerial stock mustering actually does fall within ASRA"s ambit, because quite a few "contract musterers" are current ASRA members (but many are not). As you"ll be well aware, the current CASA gyroplane Instruments prohibit charging 3rd parties for aerial stock mustering services performed. It"s this very real disconnect between the legal prohibition and what is actually going on out in the field is what concerns Paul and ASRA. We are lobbying on behalf of those members who derive some of their livelihood from gyros. I readily agree that ASRA Constitutional reform and possibly even the formation of a contract mustering offshoot organisation will be needed to advance the interests of this group. That would or will be done as and when the need arises.Finally, having attended a number of aviation law conferences within the last 12 months, including 2 separate mass briefings by the Director of Aviation Safety (or "DAS"), Mr John McCormick, I can say that CASA is definitely aggressively reviewing the suitability of the Air Operator"s Certificate (AOC) scheme for smaller outlying rural operators. The primary CASA focus in the management of AOC holders is airlines and charter operators, and any operation where fare paying members of the public are involved. Crop dusting services are about midway on the scale because of the potential for environmental and chemical hazards. A bit lower on the scale is the outlying one man local flying school operating well away from civilization, but even he has the potential to send a hapless student on a navex straight through a CTA and to cause havoc in major capital city airspace. Right at the lowest end of the spectrum is the aerial stock mustering sector, where operations are almost always done is incredibly remote places, at very low level, and with no associated environmental hazards.It"s this aerial stock mustering sector that Paul is lobbying to pry loose from the current AOC-regulated legislative scheme, and Paul"s push usefully dovetails in with CASA"s own current internal review. Naturally, established helicopter operators will aggressively push against de-regulation of the sector because of their level of current investment in the sector and fears that the floodgates would open to cut-rate operations they couldn"t compete with. I expect their lobby to be powerful and relentless, but again that is absolutely no reason why Paul"s push should be abandoned.I, too, was sceptical about the likelihood for change, but I have now swung around to the view that the present AOC scheme is going to be reformed in at least some ways, and the sector of the industry most likely to be involved in a revised pilot scheme is aerial stock mustering. It"s for that reason that I think Paul"s initiative is quite timely.My final comment is that Mr John McCormick is finishing up his tenure in September this year. I have no idea who the new DAS is proposed to be, and whether he or she will have McCormick-like views and carry on the reviews and reforms.Cheers,Mark ReganMelbourneTech Manager (and a bloody barrister)

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            • #21
              [i] Paul has kicked this off to a good start but he is a busy man with limited time and resources.

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              • #22
                Howdy Miles,It most certainly is legally possible for a current AOC holder employing at least one CPL holder who also holds an ASRA pilot certificate to plonk that person into an ASRA registered gyroplane and use that for mustering in lieu of a helo. Mark ReganMelbourneTech Manager (and a bloody barrister)G"day Mark"Plonk" suggests it can be done here and now. Not without a suspension of or an exemption from CAO 29.10. This is still a limiting factor and the fine print and detail I referred to. There is currently no way to obtain a mustering permission in a gyro in accordance with the order. Example: there is no authorized training pilot to start with. It is one of those chicken/egg type deals.Also an AOC holder would have to use a CPL (Gyroplane). Again, not yet doable here. Theoretical, yes, but hits the same obstacles in practice. For the same reasons the operator can"t plonk a CPL(A) into a choppy or a CPL(H) into a plank, he also can"t just plonk a either of them into a gyro. The status quo has worked for the last 40 odd years. The following is a quote from a CASA publication. "Commercial mustering of livestock using gyroplanes will remain outside present regulations. In the future, proposals using CASA licensed pilots with certified aircraft operating on an Air Operators Certificate (AOC) may be subject to fresh regulator consideration."Read it carefully, and be careful for what you wish for.Miles WilliamsMurchison WASimple Busted **** Gyro Flying Pastoralist

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                • #23
                  I now have a shade over 800 hours over 2 machines. 300+ on one and nudging 500 on the other. I have always thought the prerotator would be a weak point so about the first spare I bought was a belt

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                  • #24
                    Quote has an AOC, has all the appropriate endorsments,low level etc, he /she may choose to use an ASRA registerd gyro to conduct such operation"Does ASRA have mustering endorsements?If a private Cocky was using a fixed wing on his station for mustering without an endorsement he would probably say " I was just spotting, not mustering", but how many cockies would fly above 500" around their property!
                    Remember: no matter where you go, there you are

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                    • #25
                      QuoteWe also need to get as much support as possible from the pastoral industry and farmers federation to lobby the government for a commercial gyro licence under the ASRA regulationsYou see mention in this forum that there may be a large number of rural gyro guys out there that are not AS(sports)RA registered.They maybe to busy using their gyro for work rather then sport.If a gyro and pilot is NOT ASRA registered/licensed than I presume if any incident occurred, CASA would be a lot more thorough ( not the best word, but get my meaning) in investigating.When does a flying machine (gyro, plane, ulta light etc) come under CASA (and any body that CASA approves) authority? As soon as it leaves the ground or at a airfield!A vehicle has to be registered to be on a public road. If driving around the horse paddock on Argadargada station it does not need to be registered (won"t have third party either though!Ross[just curious]
                      Remember: no matter where you go, there you are

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                      • #26
                        Quote has an AOC, has all the appropriate endorsments,low level etc, he /she may choose to use an ASRA registerd gyro to conduct such operation"Does ASRA have mustering endorsements?If a private Cocky was using a fixed wing on his station for mustering without an endorsement he would probably say " I was just spotting, not mustering", but how many cockies would fly above 500" around their property! Whilst we do not have mustering endorsements available, all the work has been done if memory serves me correctly so it would only be a matter of a bit of fine tuning to make it happen !!On your own property, no endorsement is needed although once a edorsement was available then it would make sense for a novice pilot do the low level thing for their own safety.

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                        • #27
                          QuoteWe also need to get as much support as possible from the pastoral industry and farmers federation to lobby the government for a commercial gyro licence under the ASRA regulationsYou see mention in this forum that there may be a large number of rural gyro guys out there that are not AS(sports)RA registered.They maybe to busy using their gyro for work rather then sport.If a gyro and pilot is NOT ASRA registered/licensed than I presume if any incident occurred, CASA would be a lot more thorough ( not the best word, but get my meaning) in investigating.When does a flying machine (gyro, plane, ulta light etc) come under CASA (and any body that CASA approves) authority? As soon as it leaves the ground or at a airfield!A vehicle has to be registered to be on a public road. If driving around the horse paddock on Argadargada station it does not need to be registered (won"t have third party either though!Ross[just curious]Any pilot & gyro not registered with ASRA or CASA has no legal standing therefore if they are involved in any incident that attracts CASA"s attention, they can come in for some serious problems.

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                          • #28
                            Away from the post topic. found this though.Aircraft owners should be aware under Section 20AA of the Civil Aviation Act 1988 it is an offence to fly an unregistered aircraft. Flying unregistered aircraft in Australia is a crime punishable with 2 years of imprisonment, as determined in section 20 AA of the Civil Aviation Act 1988CASA has put in place exemptions to enable the operation of gyroplanes under ASRA. It is the pilot"s responsibility to operate a gyroplane under the requirements of the relevant Civil Aviation Orders (CAO) and the ASRA Manuals which list the requirements for aircraft registration, membership and pilot certification. Aircraft that are operated whilst not registered with ASRA are not covered by the exemptions of the relevant CAO resulting in a breach of Civil Aviation Act 1988 20 AA - Flying an Unregistered Aircraft. Ross
                            Remember: no matter where you go, there you are

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                            • #29
                              Any pilot & gyro not registered with ASRA or CASA has no legal standing therefore if they are involved in any incident that attracts CASA"s attention, they can come in for some serious problems.

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                              • #30
                                Hi Brian, I remember in the early 90s that PPL holders would be flying unregistered gyros and did not care until I told them that once they break the ASRA rules they are then in the BIG paddock at the mercy of CASA who could take their PPL off them. A rude awakening to some at the time..Aussie Paul. Exactly Paul, as someone once said, " Ignorance is no excuse"As Chook has posted, there are quite clear implications for flying unregistered/ no licence etc and yes, I too flew around blissfully unaware of what I was doing for some time!!The implications are very clear now days in regard to the legal litigation

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