Plastic Seat Tanks

[gyroo]

For T-Bird -Re Goodwin seat tanksYes - I completely agree - Goodwin seat tanks are a great product and have a demonstrated history of operation for tens of thousands of hours particularly in mustering operations.The only reason I made the aspirational statement about FAR 27.952 is because as the Tech manager I"m always on the hunt for technologies that might possibly be incorporated into gyros to make them safer. True it is that motor bikes and jet skis have their tanks between the riders thighs, but in neither is the rider strapped to the tank. Gyros are the ONLY form of human transport where the occupant actually straps onto the fuel tank. And, I say again, most members of the public are astonished and mortified when they learn this. Of course, the type of "members of the public" I"m most concerned about are State Coroners.The FAR 27.952 issue has had some prominence in recent years with the Robinson R-44 fuel tank scandal. After at least 3 fatal R-44 accidents (including one here in Australia at Barren Tops near a restaurant), the FAA finally realized that there was no way that the R-44 fuel tank could comply with FAR 27.952, whereupon the FAA ordered Robinson to rectify the deficiency and where Robinson, in turn, made available the update kit at reduced cost to operators.T-Bird, I completely agree that if a gyro hits with the force of falling from 50 feet then the pilot"s gonna be instantly dead from impact forces alone, so any post crash fire is immaterial from a survivability perspective.BUT - what the R-44 scandal demonstrates is that fatal post-crash fires have broken out in low speed otherwise-survivable R-44 crashes, in a similar way to post crash fires immediately breaking out with fatal or non-fatal Australian gyroplane accidents. FAR 27.952 simply sets up a very rigorous "torture test" for manufacturers to adhere to. Somehow with the R-44 that didn"t happen, but it is now undoubtedly correct that most updated R-44"s flying at this very instant are now much safer because of the existence of the FAR 27.952 standard.With Australian gyroplanes, because essentially everyone is flying them at their own personal risk, ASRA has to refrain from implementing onerus technical requirements lest they tend to kill-off the sport. We have to tread a fine line between promotion and oversight. Too much promotion with no oversight will see the accident rate increase. To much oversight with no promotion will kill the sport. There has to be a middle ground. Of course, it is with 2 seaters that most of ASRA"s technical attention is directed, because ASRA has a clear duty of care to the 2nd occupant.Cheers,Mark R

[t-bird]

Hi MarkOccupants aren’t strapped to a fuel tank in a R44 yet they have burned. Strapping to a fuel tank is not the problem here.R22’s did not have the same problem as the R44’s but

[gbw]

“There has to be a middle ground. “ Mark R.This is a very valid point. A coroner called for slam dunking to be banned in basketball on the strength of one death in Dromana. On this basis, cars should have been banned long ago. ASRA is very fortunate to have a thinking (and sharing) lawyer on board. Edward Debono pointed out that lawyers are trained to win arguments, not to think.Most times rules go into place with the unwritten addendum “suck it up”. I am impressed with the counter arguments to Marks thoughts, which can only help him come up with the best middle ground.But name calling and abuse is much more fun, and I am missing it here.Graham

[MadMuz]

Just out of interest Mark, the fact that if someone rings a seat tank supplier and says they have their gyro nearly finished, just need a

[tonydenton]

good points there muz, I can remember Adrian talking about " the stats to prove it " so if easily 1000 of jerry"s seat tanks were sold , and no matter what were written on them , how many had failed and how many had caught fire and how many people had died , JUST BECAUSE OF THE TANKS, QUALITY, DESIGN ETC. then the stats showed a 100 % success rate up until the death that would be in front of the cororner at that time. then that would be a success rate to be proud of.

[MadMuz]

Yes, a brilliant record indeed.... I have flown with them, I like them and would use one again.... I just think that the "water only" embossing is silly..... I have never heard of a seat tank failing and burning anyone.... sure they bust in a proper crash, but so would alloy, steel or bladders for that matter...... fiberglass tanks are the ones that worry me...

[asra]

I think in the years I have been involved in accident investigation I have only ever seen one plastic seat tank actually burst on impact. That was a "medical reason"" crash in the 90"s and the petrol didn"t ignite. That gyro went in inverted from 300 feet.Most other crash and burn accidents I have seen resulted from fuel spilling out of filler nozzles or fuel line separation. Having said that though fuel tanks are usually a small puddle of plastic by the time we get to them so its a bit hard to tell

[Russell]

The "do gooders" are hell bent on legislating your lives, it"s gaining momentum......Too many folks just accept the sh!t, so eventually you are "controlled" Rules / regs, the moment some idiot stuffs up, the do gooders promote more rules. Can see lawn bowl folks wearing high viz clothing next.......unreal. One new industry that"s going ballistic is the "lollipop" brigade........stop...go, folks absolutely everywhere....Rec flying etc.......it"s " experimental ", it"s risky, ......you accept that, period.

[MadMuz]

Spot on Russ... well said...It will be interesting to see what the reaction is when the lollipop people get replaced by the temporary traffic lights and cameras : Will be a lot of folks out of work then

[gyroo]

Boys and girls -I"m not out to ban seat tanks at all - but you talented people need to take a step or two back and ask yourselves why gyros suffer from such bad press. The major consideration is that statistically up to 0.66 to 1 percent of our membership seems to be killed off in any one year. Now, so far as I can determine you"ll only find comparable death rates in things like base jumping, high-rise parkour and free climbing and to a lesser extent parachuting. Fire deaths have played some noteworthy part in our death rates over the past 10 years, so someone in our organization needs to be contemplating what constitutes the fire risk and how that risk can be reduced. For the time being, that"s gotta be me.To answer Muz"s question about what does the "not for petrol" stamp in seat tanks do? I say "not much", given that everyone knows its a fuel tank. It"s a bit like the "bath milk" controversy that"s occurred in Victoria over recent months. Everyone knows that raw unpasteurized milk was being sold in Victoria as "bath milk" marked "not for human consumption - for cosmetic purposes only."

[MadMuz]

Hopefully if CASA turns the blow torch on.... no one is strapped to their seat tank

[tonydenton]

ok we are all on the same side here and that"s the most important part and also the best part.

[RossM]

Muz, Sportscopter seats are comfortable.[ just my opinion from my 1 minute sitting in one at Wondai last year ]http://www.sportcopter.com/Gyroplanes/VortexM912/tabid/135/Default.aspx

[MadMuz]

Ross, I have not had the opportunity of sitting in a SC ..... yet

[t-bird]

Hi Mark Our gyro community suffers bad press due to the muster and other non members not reporting their hours.You are now trying to correct this with stricter unnecessary rules which will result in more pilots going under ground.Your problem is the statistics not the airplane. If want to make a difference to statistics then increase the number of gyro hours.My suggestion is to get each hubbar an rotor manufacturer to keep a record of sales with gyro and pilot numbers.No asra number NO Hub bar. This is duty of care.Or you can try the cover your ass route and increase the gyro safety standards beyond certifiate aircraft.Best of luck with this opotion as you will still be sort 130 000 - 150 000 hours a year, but will still have the accidents.