laws n logic

[birdy]

Not sure if this is the place to hava ***** bout the law, but im go"n to anyway.Most laws are rit for a good reason, like taken idiot drunk drivers off the road, or [ should be ] mandatory hangn child molesters.They are there to protect the general population from idiots n animals.But sum laws have no logic at all.Iv been buzzn round ere for 15 odd years in me gyro, do"n wot ever i need to do over me own dirt, and even flyn over other peoples dirt, in both a single seater and a 2seat gyro, and have always been within the law. Coz the laws regarding gyro ops are, in the main, logical.Iv never needed to fly into controled air, so iv never had the need for any of the add ons needed to do so.Still within the law, coz they are still logical.But, for sum reason, according to the law, if i add power to the rotor, even only PARTIAL power*, the ruels suddenly change. ???Why?Im not do"n anythn different.Im not go"n anywhere different.I wont be flyn any differently.I wont even need to carry a passenger. IOW, if i chose to fly a rotorcraft that has partial or full power to the rotor, im sumhow more of a danger to the public. ???How?If i chose to step from a gyro to a machine that applies even only a portion of the engine power to the rotor, suddenly i need to do weeks of theoretical study and hours of actual train"n, just to do ZACTLY THE SAME AS IV BEEN DO"N FOR 15 YEARS in me gyro.All that study BTW, is bout learn"n stuff im never go"n to need to know, stuff iv never needed to, and never will coz im not do"n anythn different.Im just driven different type of aircraft.It shouldnt make any difference, from a pure law perspective, wot im flyn, be it a paper plain, gyro, r22, 747 or a f*** chinook heli, coz wot im do"n with wotever im sitn in will be zactly the same as iv been leaglaly do"n for 15 years, in me humble little gyro.IOW, why should i, or anyone else in my position, need to get a PPL simply coz iv changed the type of craft im sitn in??All i should need to do is learn how to drive this other craft. Afterall, thats wot counts, not, how to talk to radio control towers and air traffic laws.Iv also been told that you cant " just change the law".Why the hell not?It was "just ritn" wasnt it?*Taken the law literaly, im breakn it by holdn the prespinner on AFTER iv tookn off, or engagen it in flight, coz the law says any rotorcraft that ANY power transfered to the main rotor while in flight IS NOT a gyro.If im treadn on sum toes ere, i hope they are the rite ones, and yes, its ment to hurt.

[asra]

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[birdy]

Call it wot you like Sam, but its fact, and should be changed.Haven these sorta laws isnt go"n to stop anyone from flyn wotever they please over their own dirt. [ or sumone elses dirt for that matter] All itll do is drive these people underground, and noone will ever know wots out there. ****, theres plenty around that wont even do the simple bits to be leagle ina gyro, never mind the crap you gota go through to get a PPL.I have no problem with registering anythn that flys, balloon, proper plane, rocket or sum new wiered idea. At least we will have abit of an idea of wot it used to be before ol mate turned it into a smoken mess, if thats where it ends up.And if its just a regular common craft thats go"n to be do"n zactly the same asa gyro, then i agree he should get instruction, to a level the instructer is comfortable with [ hours it takes shouldnt come into it] before he goes out n dose his thing, just like he did in his gyro.

[Brian]

You must have too much time on your hands there now you havent any grass So, what exactly are you whinging about you big sook.? :P

[WEST OZ FLYER]

Yeah Birdy I don"t understand the logic of some people. I don"t normally get on forums but I hear you. This just seems to be how things are now.I am a spraypainter by trade and have my own smash repairs business for 7yrs. I did my appreniceship in a small country town where on Mondays and Tuesdays we had to do panelbeating as there was no painting normally early in the week. Come the rest of the week the panelbeaters where helping you paint cars. I have been doing this kind of work now 13 years and still not one job has come back for rework. Recently here in the west someone decided it was a good idea to remove the backyard type repairers. ( I seen some exceptional work come out of these sorts of places too ) Now I have been removing radiators, windscreens, suspension, brake components, removing structural pieces in cars etc for the last 12yrs in my profession. Someone sitting behind a desk trying to justify there job has told me now that I have paid my license fee and jumped through the hoops to become a "proper" repairer I can no longer remove the above mentioned parts unless they are damaged in an accident. Now what is the difference between a radiator with a hole/leak and one that has been damaged in an accident.? I asked further questions like " can I remove windscreens with a chip in them rather one with the imprint of a kangaroo body in it? " The was NO you need to be qualified glazier to do that.!She hung up on me when I told her that this was nothing but a money making scheme! Work that one out? Don"t worry about treading on toes. If they are getting upset it is only because the truth hurts.Matthew.

[Tsemler]

I hear ya birdy. I reckon it should be changed as well so say a max of 5 - 10 hp can be put thru the rotors and on the condition that you can"t change the pitch of the blades inflight. While we"re at it, make firing a gun from a gyro inflight legal as well

[kingo]

birdy, just buy it and fly it, leave passengers on the ground and you won"t be risking the farm.

[birdy]

So, what exactly are you whinging about you big sook.?Hmmm, thort i made that pretty obvious. ???I reckon it should be changed as well so say a max of 5 - 10 hp can be put thru the rotors and on the condition that you can"t change the pitch of the blades inflight.Shouldnt be any difference wot you fly, or wot the machine can do, or how you control it or how it flies. From the publics point of view, if it leaves the ground, its an aircraft. The laws n restrictions should be focused on wot your do"n with it, not wot it is. The law is sposed to be bout protectn the public from loose cannons, not nannying everyone.I could do bore runs n plug camels for a hot air balloon or a 747, its not go"n to make an ounce of difference to public safety wot im sitn in.But if i wanted to fly into controled air, in a peddle powered heli, then yes, id need help.Yeah Birdy I don"t understand the logic of some people.Thats coz they aint logical.She hung up on me when I told her that this was nothing but a money making scheme! Its called "protectionism", or subsidising. And its a cancer that only promotes slothfullness, not productivity.If you dont hava ticket to wipe your own ass, you gota get sumone "qualified" to do it for you, apparently.

[asra]

Birdy.The rules for basic Gyroplanes state- A2,Applicability.(b) A gyroplane is defined as a rotorcraft with a non-power driven rotor supported in flight by the reaction of air on one or more rotors which rotate freely on a substantially vertical axis,when the aircraft is in horizontal flight.OK thats a basic definition,but...(c) Where a particular feature is not similar to one which is part of a previously accepted design, the gyroplane must successfully complete the flight endurance test specified in B3B3 goes on to outline that any gyroplane that is fitted with "new and untried features" must undergo a 25 hour test flight procedure,not unlike the requirements for compliant 2 seater"s.So it could be argued that having a partial powered rotor is not similar to a previous design and the builder can happily modify his gyro accordingly,and fly off the 25 hours.It could also be argued in the opposite that original Bensen gyro"s had as an option, factory supplied partial power modules fitted to the rotor head and all sport gyroplanes operating in OZ are Benson derivatives.So,it IS a tried and proven feature.CAO 95.12 simply states a gyro is "a power driven heavier than air aircraft supported in flight by the reaction of the air on one or more rotors which rotate freely on a substantially vertical axes"Nothing about being partially powered.Your rotor is going to operate "freely" isn"t it?The bottom line?I would be happy to sign off on a design that had constant partial power to the rotor,with obviously safety designs in place such as overriding clutches etc. Anecdotal evidence suggest that no more than 15 Horsepower should be put through to the rotor due to possible torque effects.Murray,Operations Manager.

[Brian]

So, what exactly are you whinging about you big sook.?Hmmm, thort i made that pretty obvious. ???I reckon it should be changed as well so say a max of 5 - 10 hp can be put thru the rotors and on the condition that you can"t change the pitch of the blades inflight.Shouldnt be any difference wot you fly, or wot the machine can do, or how you control it or how it flies. From the publics point of view, if it leaves the ground, its an aircraft. The laws n restrictions should be focused on wot your do"n with it, not wot it is. The law is sposed to be bout protectn the public from loose cannons, not nannying everyone.I could do bore runs n plug camels for a hot air balloon or a 747, its not go"n to make an ounce of difference to public safety wot im sitn in.But if i wanted to fly into controled air, in a peddle powered heli, then yes, id need help.I read your post the second time & didnt miss the important bit.I"m not a lawyer but to me its the "intent" of what you are trying to do or can do that is the thing. So, to me, your intent is NOT to make helo out of your gyro so everything is sweet !!!!

[birdy]

Nothing about being partially powered.Your rotor is going to operate "freely" isn"t it?If its partialy powered, its not "freely".So, to me, your intent is NOT to make helo out of your gyro so everything is sweetIts not just me tho Brian.If jo blo down the road was in the same position as you or me, [hada gyro for years,] and wants to get his own heli or FW, [or balloon or hovercraft] and do ZACTLY the same thing he"d been do"n in his gyro, why should he need a PPL? Nuthns changed.Its like driven ya bore run ina suzuki, and swapn it for a Tranzam. You wouldnt need to get anatha licence to drive the Tranz round ya bores would you?BTW, for some time now, it makes no diference if you are flying over your own place or any other place on this planet, the law relating to anything that flies is regulated. The machine must be registered and the pilot licensed !! I know, and i agree with it.I stated in the first post that im all for registration, and a license.Wot im sayn is, why, if youll be do"n nuthn different to wot youv been do"n for years ina gyro, are you required to learn a heap of other irelivant stuff just coz your flyn sumthn different?Its this irrelivant requirement that will make most people say " bugger it, ill dissapear".And this helps noone.

[Bill Cross]

Hey Murray,Does that rule also apply for a non powered variable pitch rotor?I know that Mr Benson played around with the concept. 25 hrs to prove the design and it"s legal to fly ?RegardsBill

[Brian]

Nothing about being partially powered.Your rotor is going to operate "freely" isn"t it?If its partialy powered, its not "freely". So, to me, your intent is NOT to make helo out of your gyro so everything is sweetIts not just me tho Brian.If jo blo down the road was in the same position as you or me, [hada gyro for years,] and wants to get his own heli or FW, [or balloon or hovercraft] and do ZACTLY the same thing he"d been do"n in his gyro, why should he need a PPL? Nuthns changed.Its like driven ya bore run ina suzuki, and swapn it for a Tranzam. You wouldnt need to get anatha licence to drive the Tranz round ya bores would you?BTW, for some time now, it makes no diference if you are flying over your own place or any other place on this planet, the law relating to anything that flies is regulated. The machine must be registered and the pilot licensed !! I know, and i agree with it.I stated in the first post that im all for registration, and a license.Wot im sayn is, why, if youll be do"n nuthn different to wot youv been do"n for years ina gyro, are you required to learn a heap of other irelivant stuff just coz your flyn sumthn different?Its this irrelivant requirement that will make most people say " bugger it, ill dissapear".And this helps noone.Righto, unless you are putting enough power into a rotor, the air being the more dominant force, is always going to win. Once you put a lot of power into a rotor, I reckon coning angles / pitch settings are going to make life complicated...unless you have it figured out.Part 2. Why ? well for staters, if you or I was to buy a R22 or

[birdy]

Righto, unless you are putting enough power into a rotor...........Never mind wot im do"n, im speakn generaly, for everyone.Part 2. Why ?I know all that, but why bend over like everyone else and take it?Just sayn " coz its the law" is a copout.The law sucs, and the population should be standn up, not bendn over. They are, after all, public servants. We are the public, they are OUR servants. Keep bendn over n theyll keep shaftn you.Iv never argued with a public servant, i tell um. [ cops exemted, i call them sir.]particularly Heliflite for example are going to want to see your liscence before they hand over the keys and without a PPL H, you got buckleys of getting the keys!If the licence was relivant, i wouldnt hesitate at getn one.The reason behind this and probably the answer to your original question is that the "air" /sky/ space over yours or my place, is not ours to "freely" use.Never said it was. Im sayn i only want to do wot iv been do"n, leagaly for 15 years ina gyro, ina natha machine.The grubbermit own it..........The guvment dont own jacsh1t, the public do. They are sposed to only represent US.bottom line is that when they say dance, we danceNever have n never will. [ unless he"s gota badge n 6 popper.]as long as you have the correct bit of paper to cover whatever activity you are doing or not doing....or what you might be thinking of doing.Thats me origional point.That "pice of paper" needs to be relivant. [ id get it if it was]At the moment, it aint, and iv never wasted a second of my life do"n sumthn iv never needed to do. Certainly wont do it for one of our "servants".[i]Not sure about you but if I had a 22 or a RV 7A sitting in my shed, it wouldnt be long and it would be flying all over the country landing at exotic places like Ayers rock and Indianna so

[Brian]

Right, now you have got he general idea, while the theory is good, in practise its not the case...talking grubbymits ..... They say , when it suits them that they are public servants but next second they make a law that no one voted for and then they say " we had to cause its for your good " ..........yeah, really ??????????????????????????????????????????????In short, it doesnt matter if its you, me or the other 20 milloin people, same rule applies, as long as you only partially power the rotor, then it stays a gyro, soon as the engine is doing all the drivin, its a helo !!If you want to do something about it, get elected to parliament !!