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**mrford61** · 09-08-2005, 02:29 PM

G,day Bob,Get some dual instruction, if you havent already, and try 50 mph.RegardsMark.

**asra** · 10-08-2005, 02:12 AM

Bob, the horizontal stablizer on high thrust machines uses a tall tail and is located in the centre of the the thrust line. The recommended angle of tilt forward for the rudder is 1 degree thereby encouraging the horizontal stabiliser angle to make the aircraft climb. A bit like an elevator on a fixed wing. This makes the gyro very stable and by changing different throttle settings the thrust of the prop wash upon the stablizer angle will trim up the machine.

**birdy** · 10-08-2005, 07:07 AM

Burdie????Did you mean birdy?If its is the hinged, inverted, airfoil stab I had in the prop blast on me RAF your refer'n to, then yes, it will produce too much down force on the rear of the machine and make it almost impossable to lift off under full power,......IF you have too much negative angle set on it.Any negative AOA on a stab will apply artificial weight to a machine, but a small amount is sumthn you gota live with if you want to dampen any PIO tendancies the PILOT may have.If your not worried bout PIO, but want to have some security against PPO, then a neutral stab will suffice.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.You can always get the answer you want, if you ask enough experts.

**asra** · 11-08-2005, 05:53 AM

Ahhh !thanks fellers and Sorry Birdy ! .... had to be a typo ! and yes it was the RAF i was refureing to ! thanks !.......... Seeings as how I can make my HS to do any angle that is best for flight what do you fellers sujest ?... I am concerned about PIO and PPO .... that is why I set it originally for neg 2 degrees in the first place ...I just got done shimming it to about 1/2 to 3/4 of a degree down in the front of the HS .... so its close to being zero degrees but a tad on the down side ... think I'll leave it there and see what it does ....for now . Berry F. .....if I need to put a Positive angle to the HS to help lift it that can be done as well , but wouldn't that make it more vulnerable to PPO....by doing that ?. the rudder 's angle is 90 degrees to the frame .... no tilt foward to it at all.... the HS is located half way between the center thrust line and the frame , supposedily putting it in the faster air for more stability.I have hurd pros and cons of having the HS in the center thrust line.... and have opted for the half way point due to the P factor reduction that it is supposed to give at that location , rather than having it at the centerline . the tail of my craft comes to just a touch above the centerline at the highest point .... and the HS is ofcorse below that by about half way. this is supposed to be an Ultralight not a 2 place craft ... its light in comparison obviously. all in all if you count the total time in the air I am guessing I have close to a Minute now ! HAHAHAHHAH so in reality I have no air time at all... and I am concerned about the PPO and PIO ... as i have no experience to speak of as of yet though I am getting hours under my belt taxieing the thing arround the strip I am having a hard time getting the beastie to Hop like it should. My recient Modifications should make a big diference.. the 4' hub bar and HS to almost level fith the frame should help alot I think .not to mention stripping everything off the machine thats not essential to flight .... I have lightened her up alot !thanks for the help fellers' its realy appreaciated !Bob......" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

**asra** · 11-08-2005, 06:15 AM

mrFord61;.... there is no gyro instructions to be had on the west coast of the usa except near Portland Or. over 600 miles away. sufice it to say if I'm going to fly I have to teach myself ..and that is what I've been doing with the help I have had from people on the net ..... there is lots of advice out there good and bad saying "get instructions " isn't help ... I have hurd that many times before .if you think its my Technic of doing it speek up ! I'ed love to hear how you take off at 4800ft in an Ultralight gyro ! 'cuz I'm having truble doing it ! Bob......" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

**asra** · 11-08-2005, 07:19 AM

Bob, (your Quote) "get instructions " isn't help ... I have hurd that many times before.Well your bloody well going to hear it again, "get a Qualified Instructor", your Quote ("get instructions" isn't help), it's the greatest safety help you can recieve.Go for a holiday, take your Aircraft with you, get it checked out by by some one Qualified to make an assessment, make the necessary modifications if necessary and learn how to fly it safely.We have people in Australia who travel from Perth to Kununarra, Perth to Ballarat, Perth to Queensland, far longer distances than a 600 mile trip up the road. As one of the old self taught brigade I will tell you that the chanches of succeeding without a rollover (thats the best senario) is almost Zero.What I have said is in the name of "safety", all the best.Pete Barsden

**asra** · 11-08-2005, 09:31 AM

hehehe Yah ! Thanks Pete !I've already had my roll over , don't plan on doing it again thank you ! well I'm happy for you to have folks travle so far for instructions definately means something ! I promice you one thing Pete if I happen to wreck my gyro I'll post pics of it ( if I'm able) and tell you what I did wrong ...there is the Misteke that EVERYONE has to have instructions to fly .... thats a lie and you know it ... you have admitted as much yourself that you tought yourself to fly.... many people have .... and it can still be done !its not the easiest way, its probly not the safest way....its not the fasest wayand probly not the cheepest way in the long run but IT IS A WAY to fly !..... "You have to take instructions or you die" ! thats a bloody lie ! .... your proof of that yourself ! ..And there are many that are proof of that ! not just a few.if I choose not to get instructions its MY business .... If it" Ruffels your feathers" that I havn't "played the game properly " thats the way it goes ! I'm not in it to make you or anyone else happy I'm in it because I want to fly my gyro. I don't see it like alot of people do .... ... in fact I have been told ...." Go ahead ... its natures way of clenseing the gean pool "if all you can say is "get instructions" then shuddup ! I've hurd that a thousand times if you don't have anything better to add than that then don't add anything I'm sick of hearing it to be honnest ! and I'll leave it at that .... thats not what this thred is about in the first place ....thanks for the help anyway fellers ! Bob...... " Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

**mrford61** · 11-08-2005, 10:32 AM

No worries Bob. There is some irony in how the CLT issue surpasses training as a safety concern in your case.Advice ?.. Take the neg.2 deg. off your stab. At 35 mph use some forward stick to put your nosewheel back on the ground. Go to full power. If it wont accelerate to 50 mph its a fair chance it won,t fly. If it does it should get off the ground.I havent noticed where you have sought advice on how to land but am assuming you have that covered.Best of luck Bob.

**asra** · 11-08-2005, 12:32 PM

Thanks I just might try that if all else fails.... though I doubt it can get to 50 on the ground ! its only a 447 ! thanks for the advice .Bob...." Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

**asra** · 11-08-2005, 01:06 PM

"I've already had my roll over , don't plan on doing it again" You obviously didn't plan to roll it over the first time, you might not be so lucky the second time."well I'm happy for you to have folks travle so far for instructions definately means something" Correct, their using their brains."I promice you one thing Pete if I happen to wreck my gyro I'll post pics of it ( if I'm able) and tell you what I did wrong ..."If you don't know what went wrong the first time, there is a repeat performance comming."there is the Misteke that EVERYONE has to have instructions to fly .... thats a lie and you know it ... you have admitted as much yourself that you tought yourself to fly.... many people have .... and it can still be done !"Today there is no excuse for not getting instruction, I have lost self taught friends to Gyro flying, I survived, however at 01010hrs Sunday 30 September 1985 I crashed and damaged my back in eight (8) places and have paid for it dearly, to this day I still live on expensive pills, ...................and I don't lie."its not the easiest way, its probly not the safest way....its not the fasest wayand probly not the cheepest way in the long run but IT IS A WAY to fly !"You can take the "probably" out of the equation."You have to take instructions or you die" ! thats a bloody lie ! ...." And there are many that are proof of that ! not just a few."I never said that you have to take instruction, i'm just telling you to get instruction for you own safety"your proof of that yourself"Re-read the above. "if I choose not to get instructions its MY business .... "Certainly is."If it" Ruffels your feathers" that I havn't "played the game properly " thats the way it goes !"Bob, I don't think you stand a snowball in hell's chance of ruffling my feathers."I'm not in it to make you or anyone else happy I'm in it because I want to fly my gyro. I don't see it like alot of people do .... ... in fact I have been told ...." Go ahead ... its natures way of clenseing the gean pool "Great.........I just want you to succeed,.........safely."if all you can say is "get instructions" then shuddup"I find it extremely sad when people resort to personal abuse."I've hurd that a thousand times if you don't have anything better to add than that then don't add anything I'm sick of hearing it to be honnest!"If you have heard it a thousand times, don't you think it's time to listen what people are trying to tell you. "and I'll leave it at that .... thats not what this thred is about in the first place ...."Summary:- (1) safety has precedence over any thread. (2) Many associations and people have put a lot of time and trouble to make Gyroplane building and flying safer, and also to raise the perception of same in the general public's eye, world wide and you have a part to play in this, I wish you all the best. Pete Barsden

**asra** · 11-08-2005, 02:55 PM

Well stated Pete I apoligize . I let my fingers do the talking when I should'a thought I'm sorry !Just because i see things diferently than you do doesn't mean I should jump all over you Your a good man for doing what you think is best Sorry for the BS .... guys ! been a long day !C ya !Bob......" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

**asra** · 11-08-2005, 08:47 PM

You know Bob, what I can see here is you are only thinking of the risk to your self and your equipment and feel you are ready to accept that liability on your own terms. What if you mess up and hurt someone else that happens to be unlucky enough to be under you when you go down? For example the young daughter of a very prominate lawyer just riding accross a road on her bicicle! You may think your a good driver and you taught your self to drive years ago. Driver training is for sisies and dummies right Bob? Flying just aint the same Bob. Drive the 600 miles, spend the money and get the training before you hurt someone else and give the rest of the gyro plane community another black eye! Ill get down off my box now![

]Flying the right side up in Canada

**asra** · 12-08-2005, 03:50 PM

Your absoulty right ! I could care less about the "NAME " I give the flying comunity of Gyros I'm not in it for presteege as alot of the people are .I just want to fly the thing... if it kills me then it wasn't safe in the first place and it deserves a black eye ! that may sound selfish to you , but thats the way I feel..... one more gyro relatred death isn't going to stop the clock for hevons sake , you all act as if ...just one more and all gyros will be banned from flight ! nothing could be further from the truth .... people have been dieing in aircraft related incidents for years .... their's still aircraft arround .... the thing You need to do if your concerned about it is control the governing forces that make up the laws , instead of sitting back and takeing what they give you ... then you wouldn't have to worry about your pressious Reputation for the gyro comunity ! and to be perfectly frank there's never anyone else arround when I practice but my father .... I don't go to crouded airports ... i can't possably runover little suzy on the cornor .... I don't go to the cornor ! if your going to make anoligies at least make them half way aplicable .... and Drivers edd isn't for sisies .... it was a big wast of time ! there is a big diference ! i already had my liscnses when I had to take the stupid drivers edd corse.... why ? because it was required ! ..... that isn't a good enough reason .... I agree I could learn alot from takeing Gyro lessons ! I wish I could .... but I can't afford it and I won't because of that fact !but i guarentee you I'll still fly ... In saying that "all need to take flying lessons" you are dead wrong ! Period ! not all people are the same , sense their not the same treating them the same is wrong.... but its the best our socioty can manage. ( and you are obviously takeing the same route) it doesn't make it right ! make provisions for those Odd ones that don't need it ! ... don't treet everyone the same and squeeze them through the same cookie mold ! For instance .... I have hunted most of my youth , I don't hunt now, however I know how to use a gun ... I've never shot anyone ... never plan to go postal or anything like that .... however ... to buy a gun now you have to take a course.... a GUN SAFTY COURSE Why ? because you want to own a gun ! you must prove you know how to use it safely.... it doesn't matter if your already an expert shot or anything else .... its cookie mold time folks .... we treet everyone the same your no exception so grin and bare it ! Sorry , but I don't subscribe to that line of thinking.... where ever i find it .... weather it be with guns or gyros or bycicles its not right , it should never have been put into law in the first place . and your trying very hard to do the same to the gyro comunity !.... in the name of safty ! ..... sorry guys but there are better ways than takeing away peoples rights to keep people safe .if you don't change your thinking it will be mandentory to get instructions very soon in order to fly anything .... and it will not keep people safe , it will only fatten the coffers of them that control it ... your still going to have idioits flying gyros buddy ! its inevitable ... weather you make them take instructions or not ! ...instructions will not save your life if you do something stupid ..... just as a liscnses to drive your car will not save your life if you stop on a train track.... its still up to the individual ... will that individual think more ...? probably yes ! will he be less apt to do something stupid ...Probably Yes ! ..... CAN he still do something stupid ... YES ! this is obvious ! ..... would you like to test me on my knowledge ? would that make you sleep better at night or make you worry less about the pressious Reputation of gyros in general ?..... knowledge can be obtained in other ways than takeing the COSTLY lessons that you are saying are so very important ..... but I do admit it is of paramount importance .... how do you asure everyone has it ? you can't .... even if they all take the same corse at the same time the people will learn at diferent rates ! then you add the varaiables of diferent instructors, ... and you have lost all continuity.... ..... I don't know who you think your fooling , your not genunily worried about my safty... your worried about the repuition the gyro comunity may get if I screwup ! .... there are a few O'l souls that realy care but most say they do, but could care less ..... so why am i bothering to explain my view point when I already know your so indoctronated into the scare tactics that you carry the same sign ? ...... just hopeing you could see another view point I guess .... and seeings as if anyone sided with me they would probly loose their liscnses to fly in OZ becuse its not proper thinking !So.....there is no sense in this conversation at all ! so see ya !Bob.......and I won't respond agin to this thred as it has become rediculas , I can't change you , you can't change me ,leave it at that and let it go sayz I no sense in beating a dead horse ! " Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

**asra** · 12-08-2005, 09:46 PM

He who knows not and knows thaat he knows not is a student. Teach him.He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool. Avoid him.

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