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Norm, you are on the wrong track. You wont get a TA to pass your machine if you are not using AN bolts. Go spend the money and you will save yourself a lot of trouble at the other end.PeteBairnsdale,Vic.
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John,Have to agree with all that you say. I will note also that local manufacture these days does not necessarily mean high quality either, some corners are cut by some. The best thing to do is ask the source of the bolts - ie, the packager, where they came from and make your own determination by purchasing a sample and testing them yourself with a torque wrench - stress them up until they bust and do some calculations based on the torque you needed to bust a few off. You can also use a torque wrench to bend them and work out the bending stress from it as well and see if it fits in your margin of safety.Norm,There are no 'nice' patterns, the bolt is either the correct size or not, you must make it work, not pigeon hole it to a 'nice' size.M5, M6 and M8 would be more like it, M4 is a size unlikely to be used as it is too small.As to sizing let me introduce you to the 'lore of the squares'... 1^2 = 1, 2^2 = 4 - if you double the diameter you quadruple the area and quarter the stress. The message in this is to not be arbitary in resizing bolts, because if you downsize, eg 1/4" down to M6, you can have a nasty effect on the stress, that 0.35 behind the 6 does a bit to reduce the stress in the bolt.ie, 6 ^ 2 = 36. 6.35 ^ 2 = 40.32 40.32 / 36 = 1.12.. so the 1/4 bolt is 12% stronger, which is very significant, especially if you are crash testing your machine.. like I did.UNF bolts generally are no more expensive than metric bolts in reality and sticking with the imperial sizes for the Bensen design fits the design.Hope this helps.Nicholas TomlinAlarmist - www.alarmist.com.au - we scare for you
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John,Have to agree with all that you say. I will note also that local manufacture these days does not necessarily mean high quality either, some corners are cut by some. The best thing to do is ask the source of the bolts - ie, the packager, where they came from and make your own determination by purchasing a sample and testing them yourself with a torque wrench - stress them up until they bust and do some calculations based on the torque you needed to bust a few off. You can also use a torque wrench to bend them and work out the bending stress from it as well and see if it fits in your margin of safety.Norm,There are no 'nice' patterns, the bolt is either the correct size or not, you must make it work, not pigeon hole it to a 'nice' size.M5, M6 and M8 would be more like it, M4 is a size unlikely to be used as it is too small.As to sizing let me introduce you to the 'lore of the squares'... 1^2 = 1, 2^2 = 4 - if you double the diameter you quadruple the area and quarter the stress. The message in this is to not be arbitary in resizing bolts, because if you downsize, eg 1/4" down to M6, you can have a nasty effect on the stress, that 0.35 behind the 6 does a bit to reduce the stress in the bolt.ie, 6 ^ 2 = 36. 6.35 ^ 2 = 40.32 40.32 / 36 = 1.12.. so the 1/4 bolt is 12% stronger, which is very significant, especially if you are crash testing your machine.. like I did.UNF bolts generally are no more expensive than metric bolts in reality and sticking with the imperial sizes for the Bensen design fits the design.Hope this helps.Nicholas TomlinAlarmist - www.alarmist.com.au - we scare for you
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John,Have to agree with all that you say. I will note also that local manufacture these days does not necessarily mean high quality either, some corners are cut by some. The best thing to do is ask the source of the bolts - ie, the packager, where they came from and make your own determination by purchasing a sample and testing them yourself with a torque wrench - stress them up until they bust and do some calculations based on the torque you needed to bust a few off. You can also use a torque wrench to bend them and work out the bending stress from it as well and see if it fits in your margin of safety.Norm,There are no 'nice' patterns, the bolt is either the correct size or not, you must make it work, not pigeon hole it to a 'nice' size.M5, M6 and M8 would be more like it, M4 is a size unlikely to be used as it is too small.As to sizing let me introduce you to the 'lore of the squares'... 1^2 = 1, 2^2 = 4 - if you double the diameter you quadruple the area and quarter the stress. The message in this is to not be arbitary in resizing bolts, because if you downsize, eg 1/4" down to M6, you can have a nasty effect on the stress, that 0.35 behind the 6 does a bit to reduce the stress in the bolt.ie, 6 ^ 2 = 36. 6.35 ^ 2 = 40.32 40.32 / 36 = 1.12.. so the 1/4 bolt is 12% stronger, which is very significant, especially if you are crash testing your machine.. like I did.UNF bolts generally are no more expensive than metric bolts in reality and sticking with the imperial sizes for the Bensen design fits the design.Hope this helps.Nicholas TomlinAlarmist - www.alarmist.com.au - we scare for you
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Norm,$400, cheap, bargain, buy them.The AN series bolts in the Aircraft industry are called "hardware" bolts. You will notice a difference between these bolts and any non Aircraft bolts in as much, reguardless of the bolt size the thread length remains the same and goes up in 1/8" increments, (unlike other bolts that go up in 1/2" increments), this going up in 1/8" increments is not accidental, the aim is to have the "shank" of the bolt in the material (not the thread)(shear point) and to further accommodate this the washers come in thick and thin profiles,by using the "correct type bolt, the bolt does not have to be "hack-sawed" down to length and thereby "chopping" out the nylon in the Nyloc nuts when fitted.Pete Barsden
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Norm,$400, cheap, bargain, buy them.The AN series bolts in the Aircraft industry are called "hardware" bolts. You will notice a difference between these bolts and any non Aircraft bolts in as much, reguardless of the bolt size the thread length remains the same and goes up in 1/8" increments, (unlike other bolts that go up in 1/2" increments), this going up in 1/8" increments is not accidental, the aim is to have the "shank" of the bolt in the material (not the thread)(shear point) and to further accommodate this the washers come in thick and thin profiles,by using the "correct type bolt, the bolt does not have to be "hack-sawed" down to length and thereby "chopping" out the nylon in the Nyloc nuts when fitted.Pete Barsden
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Norm,$400, cheap, bargain, buy them.The AN series bolts in the Aircraft industry are called "hardware" bolts. You will notice a difference between these bolts and any non Aircraft bolts in as much, reguardless of the bolt size the thread length remains the same and goes up in 1/8" increments, (unlike other bolts that go up in 1/2" increments), this going up in 1/8" increments is not accidental, the aim is to have the "shank" of the bolt in the material (not the thread)(shear point) and to further accommodate this the washers come in thick and thin profiles,by using the "correct type bolt, the bolt does not have to be "hack-sawed" down to length and thereby "chopping" out the nylon in the Nyloc nuts when fitted.Pete Barsden
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NormBefore you start to spend your money, you need to spend some time with some gyro folkand ask a lot of questions. Do you want to build or are you better off buying a second hand machine??How much is it going to cost you to build? I can see from your questions so far you have discovered building can be an expensive exercise.Where do you live, this info is missing from your profile. Let us know and we can sort out how to get you some help.Ross B
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NormBefore you start to spend your money, you need to spend some time with some gyro folkand ask a lot of questions. Do you want to build or are you better off buying a second hand machine??How much is it going to cost you to build? I can see from your questions so far you have discovered building can be an expensive exercise.Where do you live, this info is missing from your profile. Let us know and we can sort out how to get you some help.Ross B
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NormBefore you start to spend your money, you need to spend some time with some gyro folkand ask a lot of questions. Do you want to build or are you better off buying a second hand machine??How much is it going to cost you to build? I can see from your questions so far you have discovered building can be an expensive exercise.Where do you live, this info is missing from your profile. Let us know and we can sort out how to get you some help.Ross B
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