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  • #31
    Birdy, I can still get it hard enough to use it for a crane to hang test my gyro on.[]I'm following the discussion regarding pedal turns ( a missnomer, pedal turns are a helicopter term. ) all that aside you are giving the very best of advice and I applaud you for your sensible stand and the attempt to explain the dangers involved in playing to close to the edge with rotorcraft.The use of the word "aerobatics" is not very well covered by the official description of any bank angle over 60 degrees and pitch divergence over 40 degrees, that is only a regulatory guideline.Aerobatics is better described as any manouver that is deliberately performed by abrupt manouvering of the machine outside of what are normal manouvers. Furthermore such manouvering of any flying machine done at very low altitude greatly adds to the danger of the manouver being unrecoverable should control be lost.When you are working your cows and performong low level high energy high bank angle flight path changes you are not in my opinion performing aerobatics...you are working the machine based on experience and skills learned from trial and the odd error.There is a big difference between the two descriptions.I do not feel that these discussions on forums where many of the readers are ignorant of the subject leads to positive results..these discussions should be supervised by people knowlegable and trained in said subjects....not amateurs who "think" they know how it works.Almost without exception these things just degenerate into slagging of the contestants in the discussions.......that is why Craig quit....to every ones loss.C.E.

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    • #32
      Terminoligy is't one of my strong points Chuck,and I'm greatful to blokes like yourself for put'n me streight.I don't consider mustering as aerobatical ether.More like low level ,high energy moves relative to a ground bound job.[sounds like PC cr*p ay].I'm just try'n to dicourage people from do'n such things if they don't understand wots involved.Coz if you stuff it up in a rotorcraft,you'll never know bout it.If you wana do it,you not only need to know wot to do[input commands],but more importantly,WHY.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.

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      • #33
        Terminology in and of its self means SFA if people do not want to understand Birdy, your descriptions of what actually happens is spot on, the problem is you are preaching to a few who already think they know it all. There is a saying that goes... Knowlege is power... Thinking you are knowlegable is powerful enough to get you killed in flying......Anyhow you are just an upstart when it comes to using the wrong terminology, me I'm an expert just look at all the people I have pissed off..[]But ain't it strange we haven't killed our selve's?Chuck

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        • #34
          "but aint it strange we havent killed ourselves"Yes, my thought exactly. Some of us even dare to fly non CLT gyros and some fly without stabs and have accumalated many of thousands of hours in a harsh working enviroment close to the ground and in all sorts of weather conditions and this is one area in which I think some of our American friends cant or dont comprehend. Was adding up a few figures there one day on a few guys I know and between us I came up with a conservative 50,000 hours.Its a big knowledge base to start from.You never know how far you can go, till you get there !

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          • #35
            Brian :Not to get into the stability discussion with you, but a lot of the reasons for flying many hours without having accidents is partly due to learning the lmits of the machine and your own limits.Ocassionaly something goes wrong in the wrong place like for instance an engine failure with nowhere safe to land, or runnning into severe clear air turbulence at high altitude and having a structural failure or loss of control due the very narrow speed / attitude envelope when flying in the so called " coffin corner" in jets at high altitude.Another frightening condition that can be encountered without warning is extreem turbulence caused by mountain wave effect and very high upper altitude wind speeds. This can be encountered without visiable roll clouds or lenticular clouds.Experience recurrent training and careful pre flight planning will usually prepare you for these encounters, but not always and then your fate is a real roll of the dice. The reason I am bringing high altitude flying into this is because the same instability can be flown into at low level due to the same basic turblence caused by air flowing very fast over uneven ground, and when mixed with high temps they can combine to suddenly change your flight characteristics enough to cause a complete loss of control if you are in the wrong attitude and airspeed/ power combination at the wrong time.One of the best flying occupations to experience low level turbulence cause by heat and wind is the fire bombing business, trust me it can have its moments of pure chaos. I imagine that you guys who work cattle with gyros must run into some very interesting conditions, and thereby learn how to stay alive from experience and a healthy respect for what you do.What we fly, be it very stable or marginally to very unstable aircraft does of course give us more or less of a cushion of safety in any given situation.Chuck E.

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            • #36
              Thanks for that insight in regard to low and high level turbulence Chuck and this brings another insight into why when operating at low levels a normal manouver eg, a turn downwind may not be a wise choice at a particular moment. Yes Chuck, working cattle or sheep or goats brings up some interesting piloting decisions and is very demanding on the mental mass. I wouldnt swap to go fire bombing thanks !!How you dont pull the wings off those fire bombers I dont know ! I read with interest how you were bitten with the flying bug from a very early age and it bought back memories of how my first words were aeroplane and the first pictures I drew were all of aeroplanes and in fact spent my first year of school drawing planes.Unfortunately, due to a "careers advisor" advice, my dream of a captains job with Quantas didnt happen however, I have been blessed with a flying career in gyros so I'm very fortunate as I believe gyros are one of the most unique flying machines ever built.My reference to non CLT gyros was only in the context of flying gyros in general and of course, untill a few years ago the stability issue wasnt as widely know or studied as it is today and of course, some gyros are more stable than other's and vice a versa. Some pilots are more in tune with flying than others as well.You never know how far you can go, till you get there !

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              • #37
                Tim bought up the name of Bob Hoover and I just got to say that seeing him fly his display at Avlon was one my highlights in aviation. To see what he did with a aircraft without power for a seeming eternity of time was incredible and made me feel very humble.You never know how far you can go, till you get there !

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                • #38
                  ...Anyhow you are just an upstart when it comes to using the wrong terminology, me I'm an expert just look at all the people I have pissed off..But I'm do'n me best to out do ya Chuck.[]One of the best flying occupations to experience low level turbulence cause by heat and wind is the fire bombing business, trust me it can have its moments of pure chaosIs loos'n engine rpm[nearly down to idle]due to oxygen starvation in me gyro gitn close enough to the flames Chuck?.Its as close as I'd like to get,kinda stoped the hart for a bit.Worst part was,I was headn to unburnt country,not very smart ay??[xx(]It's scary enough when the exzact same thing happened in me grader.[sumones lookn after me I reckon.][]Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.

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                  • #39
                    My brother gave me a book on Aviation History for Christmas. There is an intrigueing discussion on where the American and European - particularly the French, pioneers differed, and why that put the Wrights so far ahead.It seem the others were obsessed with the need for stability, so their things would stabilise and fly themselves, whereas the Wrights were at all times actively controlling the Flyer, this later turned to a disadvantage for the Wrights, because while they had become extremely skilled, newcomers had to develop those skills to fly safely, leading many to seek machines that were more stable.Looks like this stability thing has been going on for a long time! John EvansThink logically and do things well, think laterally and do things better.

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