Interesting Discussion

[Brian]

Mark,I find it curious that whilst you support Trents comment, " i also believe that there should be more empathizes and testing on gyroplane theory at student level."that after 10 years and several machines, especially now that you have a two place machine, that YOU DO NOT KNOW IF IT COULD PPO.If your gyro has a considerable offset, (HTL) which can be measured, and it is not balanced by a suitably adequate HS with negative incidence, then yes it could PPO.Of course you know a tandem is far more pitch stable (even a HTL) than short coupled side by side or single seat HTL gyroplanes.There are people who can calculate the moments and advise you on this.Here in lies the problem as I see it.How can we expect Newbies to understand the dangers if the experienced blokes dont know????Your last sentence, says it all Mitch !! Very well said and so true!! Education takes time and unfortunately, time is something we havent got the luxury of !

[tonydenton]

mark, i agree with your post i"m sure it could happen,to any machine. i keep remembering during my early training i was told that i could have been getting close to it , he freaked so i did also. Mitch, i admitt it could be ppo or bunt or drag or....maybe it could be the wrong termilogy i used, trents last sentence i can understand, just the way its written sometimes i suppose. Mitch no offence ment.

[Mark Horan]

Well Mitch,I dont know why, but I always seem to think you are having a little bit of a chop at me?Mark,I find it curious that whilst you support Trents comment, " i also believe that there should be more empathizes and testing on gyroplane theory at student level."that after 10 years and several machines, especially now that you have a two place machine, that YOU DO NOT KNOW IF IT COULD PPO.....AND....How can we expect Newbies to understand the dangers if the experienced blokes dont know????For your edification, Mate, I have flown enough to know, that caution gets me home. I hold no aeronautical degree, or even attended a TA course, in this case I would find it hard to hold myself up as an expert. I reckon that My machine COULD give me a problem in the wrong conditions, Despite a bunch of intersecting lines on a photograph, If I was arrogant enough!Mark.

[asra]

mark, i agree with your post i"m sure it could happen,to any machine. i keep remembering during my early training i was told that i could have been getting close to it , he freaked so i did also. Mitch, i admitt it could be ppo or bunt or drag or....maybe it could be the wrong termilogy i used, trents last sentence i can understand, just the way its written sometimes i suppose. Mitch no offence ment.

[Russell]

When ASRA comes up with " These are your design peramiters"......... for all types of gyros...............they got my vote."Safety"............is non negotiable.

[mad max]

What"s wrong with an indorsment to fly high thrustline gyro"s as discussed at the last instructers course? It was concluded that if you learn in a htl machine you can hop in most any other type. If we scrap all the htl gyros we"ll end up with a bunch of ***** pilots.

[asra]

This is not going to contribite much to this discussion but.......What would you prefer *&^%$ or dead. Dead lasts a lot longer.Ross B

[asra]

I will support whatever decision ASRA makes about this, but I beleve that Gyro stability needs to be addressed more at training level. PPO is generally caused by Pilot error and unstable machines. I fly a Bensen, I know my machine very well and can fly it safely and confidently even though it has a HTL. If new rules do come out about constructing Gyro"s, maybe there should be something in there about proven designs that have HTL but are still stable.

[Brian]

I will support whatever decision ASRA makes about this, but I beleve that Gyro stability needs to be addressed more at training level. PPO is generally caused by Pilot error and unstable machines. I fly a Bensen, I know my machine very well and can fly it safely and confidently even though it has a HTL. If new rules do come out about constructing Gyro"s, maybe there should be something in there about proven designs that have HTL but are still stable.Thanks for your support Tim, I pray we [ASRA] get everyone"s support on this issue as it so important and the posts of Mitch /Ross Bannerman plus other"s reinforces what happens when it goes wrong.

[tonydenton]

hi sam, yes your right with my post. i"m starting to worry about my t/a course thou. either way at the end of it i will be happy to

[Greg Mitchell]

Well Mitch,I dont know why, but I always seem to think you are having a little bit of a chop at me?For your edification, Mate, I have flown enough to know, that caution gets me home. I hold no aeronautical degree, or even attended a TA course, in this case I would find it hard to hold myself up as an expert. I reckon that My machine COULD give me a problem in the wrong conditions, Despite a bunch of intersecting lines on a photograph, If I was arrogant enough!Mark.I apolagise if you think arrogance plays a role in my posts.I am also bemused that you would think I am always having a go at you. You"ve done your fair share of that.Back to topic.So Mark, you dont know one minute if your machine could PPO and in the next post you say it COULD give you a problem in the wrong conditions........which is it?There are many who have been pushing the same wagon I am for many years now.Go back and read all the Butterfly posts from before the earliest import and see what I have been saying.You think a bunch of lines on a picture and an attempt by those that care to measure and quantify the design parameters of their gyroplanes is arrogance?For your edification, Mate, I have flown enough to know, that caution gets me home.I could suggest the same about said comment.Mark,

[birdy]

Im glad this thread is go"n the way it is.Of corse, theres the silent few who will think its not good to be told, and they will be pi55ed. but pi55ed is not as perminent as dead.I have no problem with a HTL, i grew up on it. if it has the power to leave the ground,ill fly it. But that dont mean its a good machine, it just means it can fly.And from my perspective, CLT is the most efficiant configuration for workn gyros, so if im workn, ill only use a clt machine.Wot ever ASRA decide to do in the way of protection for new comers ill back, no matter who it pi55es off.

[asra]

BirdyAgreed 100%The improved efficiency of CLT machines is something not often considered. I reconfigured a HLT standard Symes ea81 single seater to CLT and these were the results- 20% reduction in fuel consumption at cruise -lower engine RPM at cruise-improved climb rate, 150 foot extra per minute-increased top end speed(+20kts)-increased load carrying capacity(+25kgs)-heaps more fun to flyThose of you who resist the change to CLT are missing out on a so much fun. ;DGot to admit I didn"t expect such dramatic change in flying characteristcs.Ross B

[firefly]

I think growing pains is what we have here.

[Bill Cross]

Has anyone , either here or O/S done a full engineering analysis of the different configurations? ??? For a gyro to gain certification, it obviously has to undergo extensive flight testing and engineering to be able to satisfy the various avaition authorities around the world. Can we learn from their experiance to help shape the future of gyro"s in Aus.Maybe a good thesis for one of the ADFA crew.Crash