I do not understand the gyro community.

[asra]

I am back in Canada on time off from from my overseas work and have been reading about the strange going's on in the gyro community.Even thought or maybe because of the fact that aviation has been my career for over fifty years and despite the fact that I went to the trouble of getting a Commercial Gyroplane license I still can't figure out what makes this part of aviation function.There seems to be some weird differences between various groups that fly the same type of aircraft, gyros.In Australia an instructor is deprived of his ability to earn a living as an instructor for a year due to having had an accident and being found guilty of several offenses such as not having complied with paper work regulations and allegedly making improper changes to a gyro.Yet in the USA I see many people singing the praises of instructors who despite the proven evidence concerning unstable aircraft still continue to teach students in a known unstable gyroplane. A gyroplane that has a dismal record of having killed far to many pilots who lost control of the same unstable gyro that these instructors continue to teach in.So does anyone else here see or understand why I am so puzzeled by all this?And please be advised it is not my intention to second guess the penalty handed out to the Australian instructor, that is an issue for the Australian authorities to deal with. I just find it strange that there are such great differences in the way people think and operate in the gyro community...beyond all doubt the laws of physics and aerodynamics are the same all over the planet. Chuck E.

[Brian]

Chuck, the laws and physics may be the same but people are not!I guess that being a woolgrower [was ] I can understand how how a group can be so diferent in thinking. We are seeing an industry that was once a main part of Australias export income going through the last acts of dying but despite many groups being formed and many millions of dollers being chucked without too much thought going into it, no one can agree on anything except to disagree and sit back and watch it all happen.Getting back to gyros Chuck, interesting flying machines they are and I still, despite having a few hours up never stop marvelling at just how they fly. I reckon I could watch gyros being flown around all day long [yes, I know I'm a sick person ] and I love these forums, great entertainment and a wonderfull way of keeping in touch with whats happening all over the world ! even if we might wonder why certain things are happening.BrianYou never know how far you can go, till you get there !

[asra]

Brian :Of all the aircraft that I have flown I find the gyro to be the most fun and most maneuverable, not to mention the easiest to fly.However having said that they do have their own shortcomings especially with regard to stability if the design is flawed. When I did the commercial gyroplane license in the USA there was zero in the written exams and in my training that addressed the stability differences between the gyro and the helicopter and it was not until several years later when I was on Norms forum arguing about the instability that I found the RAF 2000 to display that Craig Wall finally explained the offset thrust issue to me. Once I had that information it was a no brainer to understand the danger inherent in flying that design without making changes to the machine.I had been working with RAF to set up a flight training program ( 1991/92 ) and when I suggested that they add a HS to their machine to dampen the pitch oscillations my time with RAF came to an abrupt end. One would have thought that I had suggested sodomizing their mothers by the way they reacted to my suggesting they add a HS.Anyhow it was not until craig pointed out the thrust line problem that I understood just why the thing was so pitch unstable.In fact I even tangled as.holes with your own Paul Bruty over this issue some years ago, and of course Paul soon changed his opinion once he understood the problem.So back to my origional reason for posting about this, after all these years I just do not understand why there is still such a great divide over something so easy to understand and fix.Chuck E.

[asra]

G,day.Chuck,Over here we have a thing called a tall poppy syndrome.The taller you are, the harder you fall !Anyway, in your part of the world, what does having a commerciallicence allow ?Cheers.Safe flying.PS: Wonderin about stuff, keeps the grey matter stirred !Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.

[asra]

Chuck, I should have said : commercial Gyro licence.Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.

[Brian]

Robert, I think all nationalities have their version of "the tall poppy syndrome."Chuck, the RAF is an interesting example of instability and why it is unstable[without a stab]. Its hard to work out why RAF were and are still so reluctant to stick a stab on their gyro. The thing I find interesting re stability is that you have diferent amounts of unstability [or stability] in diferent designs.BrianYou never know how far you can go, till you get there !

[asra]

" Anyway, in your part of the world, what does having a commerciallicence allow ? "Exactly the same as it allows in your part of the world, to fly for hire.What connection does the tall poppy syndrome have to stability?Chuck E.

[asra]

Chuck,I think there are several issues involved. Gyro pilots ARE a pretty independent bunch. They often tend to be do-it-yourselfers and many lack much formal aviation education as well as training. This can make them both resistant to criticism, in the best sense of the word, and they may lack the intellectual tools to easily understand the underlying aerodynamic issues. I am NOT saying that they lack intelligence, just the formal conceptual framework that can make understanding complex issues easier. Often these issues can be much more effectively addressed in person and by friends, than by 'know-it-all' strangers on the internet.There is another, more general trend in american society that I find a lot more disturbing. So often now people seem to confuse passion with aggression and disagreement with attack. I've seen this over and over again on the Yank forum. There's a thread going on now about all the 'negativity'. Saying that a stock RAF is an unstable aircraft is not 'RAF Bashing'. It is a well reasoned, defensible, and correct conclusion based on the facts. To say this to someone flying a stock RAF isn't an insult or an attack on them. It is an attempt to help and teach and maybe even save a life.I got into another 'discussion' a few months ago about what I and a few others perceived as a dangerous training practice. A student was being taught by a famous instructor to level out after his climb in the pattern by applying forward cyclic and then to reduce power to maintain airspeed. This was in a stabless, high thrust line machine. Some of us were concerned because this practice unnecesarily places that kind of gyro in the most dangerous part of it's flight envelope -- high power, low AOA, possibly reduced Gs -- combine these with strong gusts or unexpected wind shear, and even an experienced pilot could quickly find himself in trouble. Despite the many attempts to discuss, explain, and debate the FACTS, the student in question and several others just called it instructor bashing and it degenerated immediately into a 'my instructor is better than yours' contest. We currently live in a society when opinons and facts are indistinguishable to most people and where a rhetorical flourish is considered equal, or even superior, to a well reasoned response. And it doesn't seem to matter if the subject is politics or physics or gyroplanes. Jim Mayfield always signs his posts with "Stability is not an Opinon". Unfortunately, to many people, that is precisely what it is.

[asra]

pwendell i'm that student you speak if i have a choice (and i do) to listen to you with a 100 hours in a gyro or jim logan with 3000 teaching hours you loose!! jeezes get a life and leave it alone. everything that flys goes to straight and level by way of Altitude, Power, Trim

[asra]

G,day.Chuck,I was curious about a Commercial Gyro Licence over there, as towhat you need as far as endorsements to that licence to enable youto perform specific commercial tasks ?Or dont you need endosements ? Sort of like " Have gun,oops,Gyrowill travel"You mentioned the Australian Instructor who lost his licence for a year. My tall poppy comment had nothing to do with that penaltybut a sad comment on the fact that over here some people take greatdelight in having one come a Gutsa.Wont ever happen to them tho because they dont stand very tall !As far as unstable Gyro's go, I agree Wholeheartedly with both youand Paul. I wouldn,t be seen dead in one.There is no way that I would cartwheel across the sky and have peoplesay, there goes another Dickhead but poor wife and kids ! Especiallythese days when so much proof is out there and I wouldn't give a stuff how many hours the so called instructor had in his log book.Bugger that.I would much rather they tell me to my face.Cheers.Safe,stable flying.Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.

[asra]

ben--ny :Please allow me to comment on what Pwendell said.Quote : " A student was being taught by a famous instructor to level out after his climb in the pattern by applying forward cyclic and then to reduce power to maintain airspeed. This was in a stabless, high thrust line machine. --Some of us were concerned because this practice unnecesarily places that kind of gyro in the most dangerous part of it's flight envelope high power, low AOA, possily reduced Gs -- combine these with strong gusts or unexpected wind shear, and even an experienced pilot could quickly find himself in trouble. Despite the many attempts to discuss, explain, and debate the FACTS, the student in question and several others just called it instructor bashing and it degenerated immediately into a 'my instructor is better than yours' contest. We currently live in a society when opinons and facts are indistinguishable to most people and where a rhetorical flourish is considered equal, or even superior, to a well reasoned response. And it doesn't seem to matter if the subject is politics or physics or gyroplanes. Jim Mayfield always signs his posts with "Stability is not an Opinon". Unfortunately, to many people, that is precisely what it is."His statement is correct, except he must have made a typing error with the reduced GS bit...what he probably meant is reduced Air Speed... the higher the power and the lower the airspeed in a high thrustline gyro the more danger of a power pushover should some other outside event occur such a unexpected turbulence.And with all due respect to your typing I believe you meant to say Attitude, Power , Trim....then again maybe Jim Logan is as fuzzy about that part of flying as he seems to be about physics and aerodynamics and their relationship to aircraft design..Chuck E.

[asra]

Olbod :The reason I have a commercial gyroplane license is in 1991 when I was involved with RAF I owned and operated a flight school both fixed wing and helicopters.At that time here in Canada there were no flight instructors capable of giving me a gyroplane add on to my helicopter license so I went to Portland Oregon and did the license on Jim Vanek's Mc J2 with his instructor...so that is how I came to have a commercial gyroplane license...for me it was just the most logical way to get a gyroplane license.I hope to live long enough to see everyone that flys gyros trained properly and understand simple issues like aircraft stability and safe design.....as you agree it really is not all that difficult to understand. Chuck E.

[asra]

Chuck,I really did mean 'possibly reduced Gs' because of the forward cyclic input which, if overdone, can unload the rotors. The student would not normally be going slowly while climbing out in the pattern. The safer way to level off in a gyro is to reduce power first and then increase forward stick. In practice, with experience, the power reduction and pitch reduction happen at the same time. Perhaps it's a small point, but a constant awareness of the load on the rotor is a good thing for any gyro pilot to develop, and it can really help keep you out of trouble in an HTL, stabless gyro.Ben,I do have a life and I 'let it go' a long time ago. I just brought up our 'conversation' to illustrate a larger point. Your response really helped.

[asra]

Thanks a lot Chuck.Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.

[asra]

Chuck.I was asking about Commericial Gyro Licences as applies to all in your hemisphere.Not yours specically. I am aware of your achievements in aviationand respect them, thats why I asked you not someone else!But never mind.Cheers.Safe stable flying.Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.