Emergency landing options

[WEST OZ FLYER]

Here is the senario. I fly from a place which after take off has nothing but big trees or lots of water. As I am flying along I am thinking about options should the engine flame out. To leave to the airstrip I follow the river as I think that landing in the water is better than landing in the trees. My solution (to everything it seems) is to vertical into the water, allow the blades to stop when they hit the water and then bail out. As I fly a side by side Rossco there will be not a cabin to hinder my escape. it has been suggested to me to roll the gyro to the right to stop the blades but I wonder how much you will get thrashed around as the blades hit the water. When do you undo your seat belt? And the tree thing. Vertical into the top of the largest tree available or a gap if the gyro will fit?

Has anyone been there, done that and would like to share senarios? Anyone have any ideas on what they would do in the situation.

[RickE]

As I fly in a similar area to you I have thought about this as well. I reckon I would try and land as close as possible to the water's edge so as the machine might be recoverable. The problem that I see with landing in trees is the inevitable fall out of the tree after the "landing".
It's a very interesting subject and would be also be keen to hear of anyone that may have been through it.

[tonydenton]

hello west oz and rick, I have done some extensive trails on landing in trees. [ just once actually ] I can personally recommend the following .
[1] try not to do it !!!
[2] but if you have no choice, do not fly in with any air speed, as it's all speed and contact with an object that won't move so it's always gunna hurt !!!
stopping near all your air speed or any forward speed, so that you drop, a drop is a fast sink , your rotors are still turning and therefore your in a fast sink this should be started as near as to the tops of the tress as possible, so that you have got as close to the inevitable, the firstly the trees first and secondly the ground.
if there are tall trees and low trees, pick low trees, they are closer to the ground because after you hit the trees it's called a crash. [ this is about surviving the crash in the trees . believe me it's a crash.
I was lucky as it was over an orchard and the trees were in rows , luckily I also know , don't drop on top of a tree "up your butt", as you want to stay as level as for as long as, which means your closer to the ground, but once your rotors are destroying themselves and cutting timber at the same time your gyro will be thrown around and over , so best dropping it beside a tree or trees [ remembering here that the trees aren't far enough apart for you to fit and your rotors not touch any of the trees ]
when it gets thrown over onto the side what's left of the rotors are also hopefully hitting the ground [ all this rotor contact is breaking your fall and making for a softer landing [ sorry crash ].
being on your side now , it's going to be one of your main frame wheels will hit the ground and crumple your struts [ I had a fibreglass spar and it was a major asset for this , more crashing as they break the fall too. .
THE LAST LITTLE BIT WOULD OF HURT MORE DOING A BELLY FLOP ONTO WATER..
this was an Australian type design open frame , built strong with a Gerry 70 lt tank. last part is just keep your arms and legs in and relax. I still fly with the same seat tank. yep bloody life saver. the gyro was wrecked totally flattened . I never got a scratch , wallet was bleeding profusely thou.
a couple of regrets, I cut down 2 good citrus trees, right beside a completely dead one. 1 would of only had to paid for 1 if I cut the dead tree. actually the bloke didn't mind as I knew him. and he was glad I was ok. ME TOO.
I never really planned it all that way AND I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT WILL WORK FOR ANYONE ELSE BUT THAT ALL WORKED FOR ME .!!!!!!!!!!!
I think about it often as i'm not one for flying high, but if I was unlucky enough [ or stupid enough ] that it happened again that will be the way I would attack it.
I do a lot more zigg zagging around tiger country now, although that wasn't what caused it . that's another story.

[birdy]

If you know your go,n over, and hava choise, choose right side.
The right blade will hit the trees, ground, water first and stop, the other blade will keep headn backwards, dragn everythn with it.
Better n haven it all rapped round ya head.

[jumeau]

The late Sid Hill put a machine down in a swamp at Newcastle by pan caking it down after an engine out,lucky for him the water was only 3 feet deep,he kept the rotors flat with just his head and shoulders sticking out above the soup,the other one I know of the pilot decked it in the shallow edge of Lake Macquarie,machine done the usual thing,destroyed itself without the dust and pinned him underneath in shallow water,a young guy who watched all this saved him in time,years later the same pilot done some floatplane endorsement training in Alaska/Canada where he said the instructor used to unclip his belt on landing approach,jury is out on that one for me but who knows how to react,every situation is different and after the mess in hindsight is easy to come up with an answer that might of worked,myself the old pilots bible says don't fly over what you can't land on ( if possible)hence pilots who look like they're pissed flying everywhere other than straight are reading their pilots bible occasionally

[RossM]

Ask Waddles about landing (falling from the sky) into water. Especially cold Tasmanian water.

http://forum.asra.org.au/forum/accid...ident-tasmania

[tonydenton]

yeah birdy I honestly believe it was on my right side, must of been because everything worked out text book. [ if there was a text book for it ]
I was trying to say that I never got to chose what happened , it eventually turned out that way. but that way would be how I would put it into trees again [ obviously I never would want it ]
I never was flying low either , my troubles started up 800 ft high and when I was cutting trees, the engine was still running, but that's another story for another post. but one that It would be safe to say is why I have been fairly vocal in wanting our forum back.
it's a great place to learn and also therefore helps with safety , and that has got to be a good thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RickE]

Ask Waddles about landing (falling from the sky) into water. Especially cold Tasmanian

http://forum.asra.org.au/forum/accid...ident-tasmania

I was going to bring that one up as well Ross.

[Tim]

A very "Rusty" pilot had an engine out over some dense tall timber many moons ago. He gave a mayday then chose the softest looking tall tree and flared out on top of it. It minced its way down somewhat before coming to a standstill, still some 40ft or so in the air. He got a couple of scratches from the branches while climbing down.

[RossM]

I would not have thought that some very tall trees existed out where ' Rusty ' flew.

[tonydenton]

struth so he picked a tree with a ladder down . , bloody talented pilot I'd say tim. . I never heard about that one.

[tonydenton]

I have thought about Allan's swim a few times too, as there are a few rivers and creeks that I cross. I do remember that he never had or very little control with the stick, but if it was an engine failure I would want to drop it flat I'm sure.
take a big deep breath before I "touched down"
my feet would be down nearly 2 mt by the time the rotars hit the water , until the rotars hit it would be going down fast, but for a second or two would be slowed up with the rotars hit the water and bent up. even when they hit at full flying speed I recon they wouldn't even do 2 complete rotations . hopefully less than 1 actually because I would want to be coming up through there. as soon as the machine and me was wet I would be getting the seat belt off and pushing up with my feet first .and also hopefully pulling down at what's ever left of up the rotars . pushing with my feet and pulling with my hands that hard that my radio cables could come with me or stay behind .
watch for the bubbles. swim up.
a long time ago when back inversions machines came out , I had always wanted to try one, I was some where, where they had one in the garage , when they strapped me in and tipped it backwards , I was only there for a while [ not even tilted all the way upside down ] when my head started to swell with a slow rush of blood , and it got to be uncomfortable ] as I was only trying it I decided I didn't like it and I asked to be tipped the right way up. I also wanted to help and also speed them up.
as it turned out I was tipping one way thinking I was heading in the right direction and I could tell they were pushing the wrong way. WTF are you doing , I want to get up so let me up.
then they said, I was trying to tip the wrong way and stop pushing, and they would get me upright. struth I really had "up" the wrong way . I was trying to push myself further around and down. dead set head spin of an experience. and a good lesson learned .
SO I'D ALSO SAY WATCH THE BUBBLES. cause they will be going up and that's the way I want to go too.
I think timing , or not loosing time at the start would be critical , but not to start too early as the seat belts and safety capsule of the strong seat tank is always an asset.
as I'd said I'd thought about it a bit but if any one can point out some constructive errors please say so.

[RickE]

My strategy for putting down in water would be to land as slow as possible with my seat belt unclipped, roll it to the right as per Birdies advice which should hopefully keep all of the blade slapping behind the gyro wait until the mayhem stops and then swim away. Sounds easy, but add adrenaline, sheer terror, the thought of losing your machine and I'm sure it would not be that simple.
We fly a route down here in Sydney called Victor one which takes you past Sydney heads and under the main flight path into Sydney, there are parts of this route that have to be flown about 2klm out to sea and must be flown under 500 feet above sea level, flying this route puts this discussion into a whole different light.

[mad max]

My advice is to not cross any water unless you have the balls of Bert Hinkler. Always maintain a glide angle to the high tide mark, and in my area I would glide to the mangrove edge, flare in and pray the next few tides are not big ones, then urgently load my .44 mag. before gingerly wading up to hard ground.

[tonydenton]

emergency landing options . struth rick, yours are huge already, but I wouldn't be following your "into water procedure", I really need to think about this a bit.
remember me saying my seat and seat belt was my "safety cell", your also saying waiting for the rotars thrashing around, to stop and swim away.
no seat belt on before you touch down and the rotars thrashing around when they hit the water [ besides the fact that you want the rotars to hit on the right side first which will start the thrashing around earlier ] = trouble with a capital T.
in my humble opinion anyway. because I thrashed around till I lay flattened on the ground.
we have seen gyro accidents and because of some home built ideas, the seat belt brackets have been " light " to say the least. broken seat belt brackets have equalled death in some accidents . slightly stronger brackets and bolts would be only be a few extra grams at the most, so there is no excuse for too light seat belt mounts etc. that's why ASRA have specifications on mounts and angles of seat belts over shoulders and the retraining force they have to be capable of .
that is what is needed at the time crashing. that's all at the time of the accident/crash. "have your seat belt on"
taking off your seat belt would never be on my list.
I could check my seat belt buckle before I touched down that my shirt or coat that I could be wearing wasn't in the way. although that would change when everything got wet or any thrashing around anyway.
it could be interesting that we could ask ASRA for a crappy old nearly never going to fly again gyro, hang it from a crane over a tank ,even no engine on the back but just a counter weight for correct balance , some how spin the blades up and drop it in the tank to see what happens to the thrashing , the test tube dummy pilot strapped in etc etc . it would be our very own aussie myth busters..
if anyone was going to ask asra, I can tell you the answer after another short story.
after 2 lives were lost recently about a year ago when a tandum crashed into bushland, I spoke to ALAN WARDILL, about should it be taught that pilots were instructed how to put it down in trees, don't quote me on word for word but ALAN said " we teach pilots not to fly over trees" [ politically correct perfect answer too obviously alan ] and I respect him for that , but could they have lived if they dropped it and never had forward speed.[ I don't know if they did or didn't had forward speed ] which side is preferred for the rotars to hit etc etc.
so I think asra would respectively say the rule for flying over water is ............this is the minimum height and distance..
that's a hell of a long way out to water rick, I can see why and what would be going through your mind.
I have been thinking about some sort of air bag inflation devices like in cars . but they stay pumped up . how much weight in that. ..
memo: ring patent attorney in the morning..

[WEST OZ FLYER]

Rick, I am not sure about unclipping the seat belt before the blades stop. My hands would definitely be on the buckles ready to unclip when the thrashing stops. I don't want to end up outside of the machine while the blades are beating themselves to death.