Manuvers in HTL/CLT/LTL gyros

[birdy]

"Just curious as to why do you think that a CLT H stab gyro will make large pitch change in a updraft or downdraft."Coz thats wot happens Brad." Kind of like riding an elevator. "The air I'm talk'n bout would feel like an elevator powered by a DOHC supercharged 454 cub" v8.If your machine has never pitched Brad, then you'v never flown it in wot I call bad air.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.You can always get the answer you want, if you ask enough experts.

[Brian]

There is a huge diference in air at zero feet to the air at 1500 feet, not always but the air Birdy is talking bout isnt what most of us would delibrately go for a 'Sunday' fly in. The air at zero feet is also made worse by mechanical turbulence then you throw in a day of 110 farenheight when the thermals and wirlys [mini tornatoes are going flat out and you have the receipe for "fun " flying and did I miss the part about the dust storm and the 30 knot plus wind plus then have to try and manourver a gyro around in all of the above to round up stock ?? and I didnt say anything about the thunderstorm spitting out bolts of lightning to the ground coming straight for where you are working bringing with it winds and windshear that can put A 747 into the ground.I really would love to visit America and go flying over there and experience their conditions first hand and see the days that they go flying on cause I really dont think that they have as rough as conditions as what we do or else they just dont fly in those conditions. Perhaps our USA friends are a lot smarter than us !!!Brian

[Greg Mitchell]

Brian, Mate!!!,That's a good day in Texas. Damn! July is hot 100 F plus, August is hotter.The place reminded me of much of the Aussie outback. Where we have the Mulga (Acacia), they have the Mesqite. It's like a large Mulga tree with inch and a half long thorns all over it. The whole time I was in the US I was in a tornado 'Belt' OR 'Alley' and OshKosh dodged a bullet this year with a tornado scare. We had to re-instate the campers awning after the 'din'.They certainly have the weather...I know one instructor over there that continues to fly at airshows and meets when all others have ceased flying due to inclement weather.We know that American gyro pilots and most of the rest of us pilots might not amass hugh hrs such as our Musters' do. We are therefore less likely to encounter or have a desire to be flying in, such atrocious weather conditions.I really enjoyed my time in the USA, a most hospitable people. I reckon you'd have a ball over there Brian.Cheers,Mitch.www.thebutterflyllc.com

[Brian]

Thanks for setting me straight Mitch, its good to get a reliable report so we understand things a lot better . Yes, I would love to go to the USA and have a look at the flying machines and country side. Was all set to go back in 95. Will get there yet !! Yes I have heard about Mesqite, not a good thing to mess with !! Our Spinafex is a bit like that, very sharp at the moment !!Brian

[asra]

Birdy, I would be interested in seeing a pic of the machine you were flying when you experienced the pitch change you describe. I will admit I don't have your 1000's of hours in such a wide range of wind conditions. I will say the only weather that will keep me on the ground is a thunderstorm. I don't know if you read the post I made on the yank forum called "A True Story". But that is the only time I have experienced a drastic pitch change in my gyro. It was like hitting a wall of air and the gyro pitched up. I have never experienced a nose down incident due to an updraft or nose up due to a downdraft. And as Mitch says it gets hot and rough here in Texas also.Reading your post I just can't relate the response you state to what I have experienced in my gyro.Brad KingN6372KMad Max II LTC

[birdy]

Brad, a couple o times in the 914RAF, and countless times in the 'very near CLT' ferel.Thermals over flat country during storm build ups can generate 1500/ 2000 fpm downers, and if you couple that with an opposing upper imeadiatly after, you lookn at round 3500 fpm variants. Putt'n round mountains in a hot summer dustorm is much worse tho, espesialy on the leaward side of them mountains.Any machine, wether CLT, HTL, LTL, stabed or not, will pitch in these conditions.Its the configuration that determins wether it pitches positivly or negativly, and by how much.I'v missed your story somewhere, but its sounds like an experiance I had a couple o years ago.Was invited over for a feed at a neibours place one summer night, so I putted over there in the RAF.I left here at bout 3pm, with storms building, but coz I was in the gyro, it didn't bother me. Bout half way over the ranges ol mate calls up on the radio and warns me bout a storm blast that just blew through the homestead, visability ona ground was zip and it was head'n my way.I just replyed, "so wut".As I peaked the last range I saw the red wall o dust head'n my way, only a couple o miles in frount.Thinkn that theres guna be a bit of an AS increase when I hit it, I slowed down to bout 35mph, and when it hit, it felt like flyn into a brick wall. The ASI shot to 90mph, visability dropped to nuthn, but I didn't notice much of a pitch, only a dramaticaly reduced ground speed on the GPS.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.You can always get the answer you want, if you ask enough experts.

[asra]

Birdy, Those were very dramatic examples. You are right. You fly in conditions I would not by choice. As you say any ship would pitch with that kind of wind change. That being said. If I were going to fly in those conditions I would still rather be in a CLT H Stab equipped machine. I know you and many of your mates can handle any configuration of gyro under extreme conditions because you have the ability and experience. I have a great respect for you and the ones like you that can challenge the worst the Mom Nature serves up. My reason for commenting on your posts is the a newbie exploring the world of gyros might get the impression that a CLT H Stab gyro will show a great pitch change in any up or down draft. The point I was trying to make is that my gyro under rough but not so extreme conditions is more like the elevator ride. By the way, do you know of an incident where a CLT H Stab gyro had a tail strike because of a updraft?Brad KingN6372KMad Max II LTC

[birdy]

Granted Brad.And my reason for posting is to warn newbys not to become complacent in ANY machine, coz wind sheer can happen anywhere."By the way, do you know of an incident where a CLT H Stab gyro had a tail strike because of a updraft?" No, but that don't mean it hasn't or can't. Some of the machines that appered to "simply explode" or "fly to pices" certainly could have been a victum of windsheer.[ and unwary pilot]Witness reports arn't very accurate coz of the distance from the machine and the angle from where they're witnessing from, as well as the fact that the bloke on the ground don't know wot the air's like up there. Unfortunatly, they are all we'v got to go on, coz all vitums die, but a better understanding of wots 'possable' in bad air gives more food for thought.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.You can always get the answer you want, if you ask enough experts.

[Brian]

Thats very well put Birdy !!! and very true !!Brian

[asra]

Tim, can you explain what you mean by the "blow back" angle of the blade, in one of your former posts? Thanks.[?]salutations []André Martin.Québec; CANADA.

[Tim]

Blokes like Chuck B would be better at explaining it than me Andre but I will have a go. It is the rearward angle assumed by the rotor disc in forward flight to allow for the forces involved due to the incoming airflow. There would be no blowback angle in a vertical descent. The incoming airflow causes the blades to rise at the front (phase delay or precession) and this requires slight forward stick to compensate. This slight misalignment between the rotor tip plane axis and the spindle axis (probably only a few degrees) is the blow back angle. It has been mentioned a few times on the US forum so a search there may give more information.Tim McClure

[asra]

Thanks Tim.salutations []André Martin.Québec; CANADA.