Student Pilots... How Can We Reduce The Risks During Solo Flights?????

[asra]

I want to start some discussion on the following issuesIn recent years there have been a number of incidents involving low hour student pilots resulting in serious injury and death. What I’m looking for here is to focus this discussion on what can be done to improve the safety of student pilots and low hour pilots during solo flying. As we all know those first few hours of solo flight can be a very stressful and high risk time.Some things to consider are:Is there something missing in the training?Are the students being sent solo before they are ready?Do students come to this sport with the wrong attitude?Do student need a more structured training environment?Is our training documentation suitable?Do the instructors do a suitable job? Do the instructors need additional training?This is only a few, what else can do you think?????As you can see I’m raising some very sensitive issues, but I can’t stand by and think I could have done something to improve the safety of our sport. Try not to make this a finger pointing exercise, so keep your comments general.

[birdy]

I think a good starting point to this would be a breakdown of the under 100 hours incidents and work from there Ross.Like, type of trainer, type of transition machine, instructers experiance of non instructional flyn, age and intent of student [ weekender or mustern], previouse flyn types. Theres alota things to throw a newbs attention.

[asra]

Interesting post Ross. I spoke to a new gyro pilot today, ready to begin his training. It seems he is willing to pay more for training, only if he is able to solo in the instructores machine.I personally feel the same, and so maybe the extra cost could cover additional aircraft insurance ???Sam...

[Brian]

I believe some instructors do not have sufficient skills and or are not teaching the syllabus correctly.I believe that students DO come into this sport with a dangerous attitude.I believe that gyros tend to be looked at as the easiest /simplistic of the aviation gamut ie, FW then ultralights then gyros. This leads to perhaps older students who possibly are closer to health problems. Another candidate for trouble is those who have tried other forms of aviation and come to gyros because they were not prepared to accept the regulations and responsibility that flying deserves and then there are those who are just plain stupid defy logic and leave their families and lawyers to sort it out after they self destruct.Thats a few points I feel contribute to the sometimes pathetic situation that arises all too often. To back up the last point, have a look at a few of the incidents that have happened over the last 2 years or so.Its a good topic Ross and you might start this thread on the other forum as quite a number of pilots seem to use that forum.

[Ken Watson]

This is what we need Ross, good topic.

[NiqueNaque]

Hmmm,Far Ken straight shooter if you ask me. On ya Ken, death doth visit us but once, not thrice by thrice as the cats would see.What this boils down to is attitude, attitude, attitude, oh, and did I mention, "ATTITUDE"!!...Every instructor gets to ask himself," is this student going to kill me??"The next question on his lips should be.. "Is this student going to kill him[er]self?" The answer is always "yes", sooner or later he will.To make it later it should be undertaken to make a novice write 100 times on a sheet of paper by wrote learning the following words:"If I do not learn how to fly my gyro properly and carefully I will kill myself". If it hasn"t stuck in their brains by then, lose them, quick - get rid of them and tell them why. Killing a bad attitude is much less costly than killing a pilot, and potentially an instructor. If they can"t get past doing 100 stupid f***ing lines on a ""what the f..k are you asking me to do this for??? type of person, then you will know you don"t have a patient person and you don"t want to train them anyway... they have a choice of 10 minutes of learning how to fly or 10 years of learning how to walk again, the choice is that stark in some instances, when death misses and the Darwin awards aren"t dished out.As most of you are aware my attitude to my own training was to get each baby step right 6 times in a row and then move on to the next baby step. There is no substitute for self automation over quick thinking, if you run on automatic and proper responses your chance of success is probably higher than that of a thought out response to an emergency situation.Hope this helps,Nick.

[Des Garvin]

Ok put up your hand all of those that have the offical student training manual on the prinipals of gyro flight which is the same as every other ASRA student recieved in his student pack?????????????I am away till Saturday evening, so I am looking forward to the interesting reading then.THIS IS IN NOWAY A INSULT OR SHOT AT ANY PERSON OR INDIVIDUAL OR ORGANISATIONDes named by family the new crash test dummy.

[birdy]

Dont believe the bull**** that they are safe in windy conditions. that is purely the pilots ability. I guarantee that if you are low hour and try to fly in a decent wind you will scare yourself or worse.They are not the safest thing to enter the air as the pilot is the biggest variable. ???????????Sorry Ken, but they ARE the safest in windy conditions, but the pilot still has to fly it.A top pilot ina FW cant fly as precise as a top pilot ina gyro, this says its not the pilot, its the machine.A nervous pilot ina FW is go"n to have more trouble than in a gyro.The pilot is the biggest variable in EVERY aircraft.Some people are not meant to fly.ZACTLYIt may be an inconveaniant truth, but its one a student should know if its the case.No matter how stable a machine is, its still gotta be flown, and sum people just cant get it.Its called nature. I cant believe how many pilots have no understanding of their machine and have virtually no rotor management skills.I cant believe how many socalled instructers dont. > If the instructer dont, hows the student to know?

[asra]

Very good, Ross. Lot"s of good feedback, too. Nick (as always) presents a very good perspective. Just a few points in "fredspeak":1. Some people shouldn"t learn to fly, and some people you shouldn"t teach to fly. Because very few people own a mirror (when it comes to self appraisal), you have to tell them. It doesn"t have to be subjective. An apptitude test would do the trick.2. Once you"ve decided who "should" learn to fly, then training can begin. When I learnt, there was a dirth of instructional videos. I"m not sure if there still is. I got hold of a rather worn copy of big Steve Graves" "How to fly a Gyro". I reckon I watched it 500 times. If nothing better exists, I reckon a good training vid would be a boon. It should have all of the elements in it that you are going to test on.3. "Learning to drive in a Rolls Royce, and then driving to work in a Morris Minor" (or vice versa).

[Ken Watson]

Instructors should be paid through the solo process to reduce the amount of students who seem to be abandoned at this stage. The instructor who supervises solo should be the instructor who taught the last 5 hrs dual. The curfew idea is good.I soloed at daybreak and flew only at daybreak and dusk in the early hours. I know of one instructor who converted from FW and was signed off real fast and did not have the knowledge or capabilities to do the job.He no longer flies gyros. We need to drum into people that this is dangerous and that it can happen to you. People need to be taught how to do a proper pre-flight.Bird, mate, I was refering more to the pilot than machine. There is this strange belief out there that these things are that safe you cant get hurt. Some think you can just auto rotate down. Alot of this belief has come from what others have said.Pre rotaters are not helping students understand their rotors. Hand spinning should be mandatory in the early stages to give an appreciation of getting them up. Ken

[birdy]

Bloodoth Ken, prespinners n rotor breaks should be outa use for students.All they should have is a stick lock, and taught how to use it proper.Now, i know sum are go"n to say its near impossable to hand start sum rotors wen you got a cab in the way. No ****. I dont think anyone should be train"n in cab anyway.

[Ken Watson]

I also think gyro performance may be linked. I soloed in a marginal 503 machine. It taught me a lot, especially about rotor management and flying to the machines capabilities, and mine. I,ve noticed some of the solo accidents have been heavier more powerfull machines. Often the excess power can get you out of trouble, but it can just as easily get you into trouble . Some friends I have who soloed in a very powerful machine rely on this power too much. This is a problem. Ken

[Greg Mitchell]

G"Day Ross,Firstly congratulations on your appointment as Training and Safety Manager. "Some things to consider are:"Is there something missing in the training?IN MY TRAINING YES. NEW INSTRUCTOR AND I WAS HIS FIRST STUDENT. IT WAS A VERY STEEP LEARNING CURVE FOR US BOTH.DUE TO THE BRAND NEW NATURE OF HIS GYRO, SIMULATED ENGINE OUTS AND LOW LEVEL FENCE-LINE TRACKING ETC, MUCH OF THIS WAS DONE VERY LITTLE OR NOT AT ALL. OFTEN STUDENTS COMPLAIN THAT THEY WERE NOT DOING THE FLYING THE INSTRUCTOR WAS. THIS DOES HAPPEN. Are the students being sent solo before they are ready?YES IN MANY CASES I BELIEVE SO. IN MY CASE, YES. NOT ENOUGH UNDERSTANDING OF ROTOR MANAGEMENT, EX RAF2000. EVEN ONCE SOLOED, WAS HAND SPINING, NO RRPM INDICATOR AND THOUGHT I WAS COMING TO GRIPS WITH IT.....NOT READY.Do students come to this sport with the wrong attitude?OBVIOUSLY SOME DO. Do student need a more structured training environment?YES. TRAINING SHOULD BE OF THE QUALITY OF A FLIGHT TRAINING SCHOOL STANDARD, EVEN IF IT"S DONE IN A REMOTE AREA.Is our training documentation suitable?I BELIEVE THE TRAINING DOCUMENTATION TO BE MORE THAN ADEQUATE. IT IS THE DELIVERY OF THE TRAINING AND THE STRUCTURE WHICH IN MY OPINION NEEDS ATTENTION. Do the instructors do a suitable job?SOME INSTRUCTORS DO BETTER THAN OTHERS, THIS WILL ALWAYS BE THE CASE. I REMEMBER AT ABOUT 10-12 HRS OF TRAINING I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO FLY WITH ANOTHER INSTRUCTOR FOR 50 MINS AND LEARNED SOME SKILL SETS IN THAT TIME FRAME WHICH I HAD NOT GOT PREVIOUSLY.I THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO HAVE A LEAST TWO INSTRUCTORS HAVE SOME INPUT IN ONES TRAINING PROCESS" AS THEY SAY TWO "HEADS" ARE BETTER THAN ONE. Do the instructors need additional training?ALL INSTRUCTORS NEED TO BE RE-EVALUATED AND UPGRADED ON A TIMELY BASIS. CLASSIC EXAMPLE WHEN I GOT INTERESTED IN GYROS, THERE WERE INSTRUCTORS WHO COULD NOT AGREE ON BASIC GYRO TERMINOLOGYS AND MORE IMPORTANTLY SOME ADVOCATED HS"s AND OTHERS DID NOT.ASRA INSTRUCTORS SHOULD ALL BE ON THE SAME PAGE. OR AT LEAST WORKING OUT OF THE SAME BOOK.If you’re a student pilot or low hour pilot, your amongst it as we speak. Where do you feel you are most at risk? How and what does your instructor do to reduce the risks during this time?AS A NEWBIE, LOW HRS PILOT I FEEL I AM MOST AT RISK DUE TO ME ISOLATION AND LACK OF OTHER GYRO PILOTS FLYING HERE. IT IS THE CONTACT WITH FELLOW PILOTS AND OTHERS CASTING MORE EXPERIENCED EYES OVER ONES SHIP, AFFORDING HELPFULL COMMENTS AND ADVICE ETC THAT HELP KEEP ONE SAFER.THERE IS NO INSTRUCTOR IN TASMANIA.WHAT DO I DO...........SINCE MY ACCIDENT AT 16 1/2 HRS, I HAVE TAKEN THINGS A LOT SLOWER, A MORE MEASURED APPROACH. I WENT BACK TO NIL WIND CONDITIONS WHEN I RE-SOLOED.ROTOR MANAGEMENT IS AS IMPORTANT AS ANY OTHER ASPECT OF FLYING GYROS. I STILL SPIN BY HAND AND DO NOT HAVE A ROTOR BRAKE. I LOVE TO FLY IN STRONG WINDS AND BELIEVE MUCH OF THE TALK ABOUT GYROS IN WINDY CONDITIONS NEEDS TO BE TAKEN IN CONTEXT. A PITCH STABLE GYRO IS FUN AND SAFE TO FLY IN WINDY CONDITIONS ONCE THE PILOT HAS WORKED UP TO THIS SKILL SET, I DONT KNOW WHAT THE REST OF YOU ARE FLYING, SO I CANT COMMENT ON OTHERS EXPERIENCES IN THIS AREA.I HAVE A PROFESSIONAL TRAINING BACKGROUND AND I BELIEVE THERE IS A LOT MORE THAT CAN BE DONE, HOWEVER, YOU CAN NOT PROTECT PEOPLE FROM THEMSELVES. I DO NOT SEE CURFEWS WORKING AT ALL, NOR ANY PERCIEVED BENIFIT FROM PUTTING ONE INTO EFFECT.I AGREE HAND SPINNING SHOULD BE A BIG PART OF TRAINING BUT THIS OBVIOUSLY PRESENTS PROBLEMS WITH TRAINING CRAFT AND THE STUDENTS SOLO MACHINE CONFIGURATIONS.SIMULATED ENGINE OUT SPOT LANDINGS NEED TO BE PERFECTED PRIOR TO SOLO. AGAIN, THIS WILL DEPEND ON HOW OFTEN THE INSTRUCTOR WANTS HIS SHIP TO BE "BANGED" IN OR NOT.LOW LEVEL FENCE OR TREE LINE TRACKING A MUST.LESS CIRCUITS MORE OF THE OTHER STUFF. CRANBOURNE CAN TAKE 10-12 MINS TO FLY THE CIRCUIT. LAMEROO WAS HEAVEN FOR TRAINING FACILITIES/STRIPS/FLAT COUNTRY AND MUCH QUICKER CIRCUITS AS EVERY 2-3 MINS YOU COULD LAND AND TAKE OFF.I DONT RECKON STUDENTS SHOULD BE TRAINED IN A CAB EITHER.Mitch.

[welli]

I preface my remarks with - No offence intended to anyone with my comments / opinions:As a current Gyro student, my comments / opinions for what they are worth:Just because the book states the minimum hours required to solo and to be signed off as a Pilot, that certainly doesn’t mean the student will be ready to do those things at that stage. The Instructor has discretion here, but when a person has limited financial resources, they often see the Instructor as trying to make more money out of them because they are told they aren’t ready for solo or Pilot Certificate.My opinion:The minimum hours to solo need to be increased;The minimum hours to sign off for Pilot Certificate need to be increased;There should be more hours until hops are authorised, there should be more hops required; and There should be more power off landings included. We are continually told that the take-offs are the more difficult bit, and the landings are the easy bit.

[bones]

I preface my remarks with - No offence intended to anyone with my comments / opinions:My opinion:There should be more hours until hops are authorised, there should be more hops requiredLLewella welcome on the forum again been awhile, now i too dont want anyone to be offended especially you, but you mentioned the one thing i was going to talk about for now.This practice i feel, is one of the hardest things to ask of a student/new pilot to do,ESPECIALLY if it is a shortish strip, so you get the rotors up, maybe balance on the mains for awhile then full tap, get to maybe 50" then its time to land again.Now i speak from experience, i went through this process twice, once about 4 years ago, and the other time about 20 years ago, and i still to this day can remember the last time, thinking damn i got to do this hopping thing again.My way of looking at it is, IF the student is ready to hop he/she should be ready to fly, fair enough?So if they are ready to hop, then let them do a short circut, and explain to them that they have enough fuel for 1 hr, if they dont feel the 1st approach is feeling right, then go around, but to fly straight up the middle of the strip at 20", then next time do the same at 10", and the next time the same at 5", and then all they need to do next time is throttle off a little and they make a perfect landing.This is the way i done it, and it is easy once you realise that, it is fine to go around, it takes all the pressure off you, and you really start to enjoy it, but and here is the important part, once they land, park it for at least 1 hr, just to let it all sink in, and then next time the strip is 4 times wider, i know.Bones