Should tandem gyros be used for training?

[asra]

Yes Mitch I knew of your exploits in the Golden Butterfly. When I sold my trainer to a student solo for him was a non event,I simply got out and the only difference for him was better climb rate and no annoying instructions from the back seat. I think the "student freezing" scenario is a myth that rates up there with mobil phones causing petrol station fires.M Barker

[asra]

quote:Originally posted by murray.barkerYes Mitch I knew of your exploits in the Golden Butterfly. When I sold my trainer to a student solo for him was a non event,I simply got out and the only difference for him was better climb rate and no annoying instructions from the back seat. I think the "student freezing" scenario is a myth that rates up there with mobil phones causing petrol station fires.M BarkerIf I may be so bold as to place my 2 cents worth.Murray, during approx 4000 hours of dual training since 1989 I have only had 2 students cause me concern by freezing. Being in a side by side trainer I was able to talk one through and touch his hand to release the stick. That machine was set so that I could still fly the machine by having a stronger stick on my side, but I did not have to force anything. This was climbing out at approx 40'.The other was a student who held on tight during the approx at about 20'. I was able to talk to him and touch his hand to relax.Before I began my training career I spoke to many training organisations, from the airforce, through GA, Gliding, AUF, and all said that productivity is higher with a side by side trainer. The inputfrom those professionals convinced me to decide on the Air Command S X S instead of the Parsons in 1987.I have suggested to several students, who were concerned about their upcoming solo after trainiung in my sie by side trainer, go for a ride in a tandem for them to see if a couple of sessions in a tandem would help with the transition to their single seater. After their tandem flight they all decided that there would no advantage to them.If I was a rich man I would have a gyroglider for the first 3 hours training to learn rotor management, a sides by side for the next 60% of their training, and a tandem for the last 20%. Very innefficient cost wise for the average instructor though!!!!!!!!!!!!As am not a rich man I believe that the side by side trainer is the most productive.Aussie Paul.[]www.firebirdgyros.com

[asra]

Have had the same thing happen Paul,students wanting to choke the stick instead of just hold it between two fingers.Bit different than "freezing" though. I did however have a lady on a "tif" some years ago decide the most comfortable thing to hold onto was the stick ,and as it was all the way back it was a bit of a concern as the nose wheel poped up at take off and her not wanting to let go.M Barker

[samwilson]

Freezing a Myth? i think not, it just hasnt happened to you, grasping the cyclic with white knuckles isnt freezing up. When a student starts to say.. over control the flare for touch down and you comment or talk him through without response, your next reaction is to touch the cyclic and prompt him not to but he is under a bit of stress by this time, now he's not hearing you properly and all he knows is the cyclic is not comming back (your preventing it) so he pulls harder and you push harder and hes in a world of his own now, Now the point is this happens all so quick and your not beside him to give a simple hand in the air or a touch as Paul says for him to realise who is in control and keep him in the real world, and hes stronger than you and well we know what the result would be.I could not do what i do as effectively or as safely if i were sitting behind the guy.Now that was fictional but describes what is possible, i have only had it happen once in 5 years and was more dramatic, but would it happen more often if i were behind him with only verbal prompts? i cant help thinking it would. I tend to agree with Paul. I am a fan of side by side in the "early stages" but i can see the benifits of tandem, for sure.Just to lighten things, i guess the expression "Freeze" is a lose word and can cover several scenario's, mine is only one. cheers []

[asra]

being behind does not meen verbal prompts only. trust me!!!

[samwilson]

quote:Originally posted by hoodybeing behind does not meen verbal prompts only. trust me!!!No it doesnt, yes and i trust you, and in this part of the world the 4x2 in the back of the helmet is the usual awakener in the fixed wing scene but is it as effective "IF" it were to happen, its amaising what eye contact can do. [B)]

[birdy]

I'm with you Sam, i recon an open bair balls 2seat side by side is the best trainer, coz you can 'show' him wot your on about, gets a tast of sitn ina seat that seems to be the opnly thing up there and if he's a bit edgy coz of the new enviroment, he's go'n to relax if he sees you sit'n there without any expression of concern.[ and its easier to get ya thumb in his eye if he don't let go]Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.You can always get the answer you want, if you ask enough experts.

[asra]

well atm I'm learning in Ian Morcombes sideXside , and in a short while I'll be progressing to a tandem (which barry and I have gone halfs in ) I do agree that the side x side is better when you are starting out because the instructor can see how the student reacts to descents , I know because the first half doz descents gave me the heebees, but now having done about 10hrs under instruction , I can see that the solo is going to be an exprience , which i'm looking forward to (YAY , but still 10hrs to go).As it was said eariler in this topic , the student should be in the back seat when they are starting out,my first few flights in the tandem will be in the back seat, and thats how it should be, to get use to the machine and the differences between the machines,that i have been flying .Ian has said that being out the front will be like doing a solo, by the time i get there i'll be use to the machine and the front seat and being "out there" by myself so to speak, (which is what i'm really going to enjoy !)thats my 20cents worth , regardsSteve Kennedy a2862

[samwilson]

Good luck Crash, and those last ten hrs will be over before you know.Ahhh the first solo, surely the most memorable times, happy days []

[asra]

Hi sam thanks for encouragement and yes they will go fast but its going to be great when i get to solo no matter how long it takes... the journey is the fun part regardsSteve Kennedy

[asra]

Fear can make people do very funny things!A story I was told when I did my training that was a true event and happened in a side by side 2 seater during a TIF flight. The gyro took off climbed to about 200 feet, turned and was heading back down the field. As they flew over the hanger area the prospective student was trying to unbuckle the seat belt - he was getting out, he'd had enough! The instructor was able to hold the belt in place until the student got his head together! The student went on to get his licence and fly successfully.If this had been in a tandem the prospective student would have got out at 200 feet ..... believe it or not [] but it's true !Safe Flying ... ding Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment

[asra]

Hi All
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[asra]

G"day Crash,FWIW, my take on the training machine is that the profile is not all that important. It may be stating the bleedin obvious, but the most important thing is to match the solo machine to the training machine. I did my trining in a lumbering old side by side (EA81/C-box/72"WD): TO = 30, Climbout= 35, cruise = 40. It all happened nice and slow. I soloed in my old DD subaru machine which did everything only about 5 mph faster (not much in the scheme of things). No rude surprises. A bloke that trained at the same was the most natural & gifted student gyro pilot I ever saw. From ab initio to perfect power off/flare /landing in about 4 hours (I was still rassling with it at 15 hours). He built himself a rocket-ship. You know, 76" this, dragon-wings that, drifter pod the other, NSI doover in the middle somewhere. etc etc etc. Real sleek machine. Unfortunately, take off was closer to 60 that 30. On first solo, took off a bit slow, got it backwards, and landed (sort of) in that attitude. Chucked another bucket full of money at it to get it flying again. TRied again ( a few months later after the rebuild), frightened crap out of himself (but managed to save it this time), and sold it real quick.