Should tandem gyros be used for training?

[asra]

(It is interesting to note here that Watts Bridge is left hand circuits and aircraft back tracking on the southern side of 30 turn to the left to line up on runway 30. I am sure these pilots are unable to see aircraft in the early down wind stage)What do you do??????????

[birdy]

Reach for the perpously positioned lenght of 4x2.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.You can always get the answer you want, if you ask enough experts.

[wflaks]

Your Gyro is not set up for student!All main student controls should be over ridden by instructor's controls1) joys stick2) rudder3) throttleElse before take off and on first circuit you instruct the student to use his first 2 fingers and the thumb on all controls and then test him if he complies to your instruction, rudder control after you are confident he will not freeze on you.Walter

[Greg Mitchell]

A similar thing happened to Marion Springer in a side by side trainer many years ago in the USA. I see no reason why a properly set up tandem trainer should not be used. It was always my preference to be trained in one, rather than a Raf2000. Perhaps I might get to do some extra training in one of the available tandems at Biggenden. If I freeze on the throttle, please feel free to 'throttle' me and if that fails 'biff' me with the lump of 4 X 2.Hey Barry, can I book a session with you now? Echo, I noticed your Rotor Ute was on the flight line at the Biggenden air strip, what's the status, is it owned by an instructor?Mitch.www.thebutterflyllc.comA thinker sees his own actions as experiments and questions--as attempts to find out something. Success and failure are for him answers above all. - Friedrich Nietzsche

[NiqueNaque]

I'm not an instructor, but here's my take on how to handle this:You dummy... stop puckering and start acting..Never invite a student onto the con on a first trip out, or the second, ever.. especially in a tandem. If it is the first go in a tandem and you're on base and you've descended from 1000 to 500' its not wonder he's frozen - did he have a freezer suit on? No! [Kidding..] He's probably crapping himself because his fear of heights has set in, nothing under him and all that ground rushing up. You should have established this before you even looked like letting him/her have a go. The first rides always have to be student's hands and feet off, even if you have to tie them up.. just to make sure they can cop the rush of descending so quickly, I know I had to adjust to it, even after 10 hrs of flight time and doing an engine out with Phil Wright.You must establish the student is comfortable with heights before taking them up where you are comfortable. Do low level flights first, hops, taxis, everything and build up to heights, or you are asking for trouble.As Wal says, the instructor should have far more leverage on the controls than the student and this must be built into a gyro that is used for instructing, especially a tandem.So, you are flying. Remain calm and forget the pucker factor, not easy but it has to be done, any panic on your part will doom both of you.The student is wringing the throttle like a lemon? If he doesn't have the con on the Joystick there is always the ignition switch, but when the big fan stops the d**khead will then start wringing the joystick, then you are in deep ****.Aviate, navigate, communicate..If you are not on descent then you must have enough power to cruise S & L. Advise all traffic of your situation and ask for a clean run, tell them all to bugger off until you are on the ground. A 'Pan Pan Pan, student frozen at controls' call is appropriate at this time.Keep flying.. Keep flying The one thing you need to 'wake' an unconscious person, and when they freeze, they are unconscious, is pain. Calmly pull one of the spark plug leads off the engine and connect it to his ****, mind the seat tank though, he'll start jerking the throttle around but most likely it will be to increase power. [This shock treatment should be built into all gyros used for instruction, sorry..just kidding] you should be in reach with your foot to kick him or his seat, shout at him to 'hands off' and kick him, 'let go' is no good, you have to state exactly what you want or you won't get it. Turn the earpiece volume up on his set if you can and shout 'hands off' you might get through with a bit of audio pain.Still no response? They might be a little robotic, persistant pressure on controls in the direction you want coupled with 'hands off', people usually freeze for a few seconds before they realise what is going on, just persist with 'hands off' until it happens, don't lose your cool.Once you regain control then set yourself up for a very GA approach, fly a very big circle on dead slow descent but, do not descend until you have the student talking to you, with hands off and following your instructions to hold onto the shoulder harness straps of their seat belt, they will feel safer if they do. Then hopefully you fly down and land, kick his **** and never invite him back again, people can freeze more than once.I'll repeat, I'm not an instructor, this may be the wrong way to deal with the problem but it is what I would do for the moment if so challenged, subject to the injection of some wisdom from a real instructor.Regards,Nick.

[NiqueNaque]

A post posting thought..You should establish a program to get your students to relinquish controls, a protocol.Usually it is shake the stick a *little* and 'your con' with a return shake and 'my con' for confirmation, if not confirmed then assume you still have control, repeat if required, this is for the thawed state.Before you even move the gyro you must program your student to 'hands off', so you sit him in the machine with his hands on the controls per flight conditions and go through the procedure until he gets sick of it, hands off = hands on the seat belt, do it one thousand times if you have to so that if they freeze this at least should be stuck in their brain, they should do it as an automaton.Hope this helps,Nick

[asra]

I can see none of the above poster's have ever trained in or flown a tandem gyro.I especialy like the bit about students not going for their first flight in a tandem. People have been training in tandem aeroplanes for nearly a hundred years and me for over ten. In those ten years have never had a problem and doubt I ever will. Everyone gets "hands on" on thier first flight whether they are 8 or 80.The differance of a student 'freezing" on the throtle in a side by side or tandem is nil. You would still have to talk,coax, punch untill you had a solution.And if that didnt work just turn the damm thing off.M Barker

[Greg Mitchell]

Sorry Muzz but I have flown and trained in a tandem gyro (Golden Butterfly at Olney Texas with Larry Neal) arguably one of the biggest and more high tech than most.My above comments were 'tongue in cheek'.I believe time in a tandem gives those of us new to the sport a more realistic experience of what is to come when we solo, ie: open frame and up front on your ownsome. IMHO Tandem gyros Beats a side X side hands down.YES!!! TANDEM GYROS SHOULD BE USED FOR TRAINING. Mitch.www.thebutterflyllc.comA thinker sees his own actions as experiments and questions--as attempts to find out something. Success and failure are for him answers above all. - Friedrich NietzscheImage Insert: 35.03

[asra]

I thought Barry raised a good point, with a likely senario as an example. I suppose I should be grateful that we have so many knowledgeable people in ASRA, keen to help!Daryl Patterson

[Michael]

If there is anyone interested in a serious trainer, I am thinking of selling my Magni M16. I would then buy a M22.Michael.

[asra]

Whats the Dude doing ata 1000 feet, I thought they was restricted to 500 unless permission applied for ?Anyway, I think that I would tell the Student that coming up aheadand off to the right is the big nudist camp. Tell him that they are are holding the annual wet *** competion today and ask him to keephis eyes out for it !If that doesn't work, garrot him with his mike cord.Dont think I would like to be an instructor even if you paid me.Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.

[asra]

Mind you, I have never been in a gyro, but I dont think it really matters whether it is side by side or tandom.I suspect that it is just what the instructor is comfortable with( remember, Paul said that after all those years in the open, it was time for him to move indoors ) and what the Student is less fearful of. The Student may feel safer by being enclosed to start with. Fear is all in the mind and has to be overcome one way or the other. Remember what Ron Awad said when he went on ski's for the first time.Probably the Instructor that had both types of training Gyro wouldbe the the one that got the most work.I want to train with Paul because I hope to buy a Firebird to work with.At the same time I would like have a Magni M22 as a fun cross countrygetabout. In other words two Gyros and the best of both worlds !But if I was to buy an M22 later on, I would like to get some sticktime with Murray or one of you other blokes, untill I was comfortablebein out in the open.At this stage I have to have this sort of approach because I donthave any Gyro experience and have know idea if I would solo in twodays or two weeks. Either way I spect I will feel good about it and look forward to havin a lot of fun !Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.

[Brian]

I reckon a tandem would be the better trainer as the instructor has a clear path which to use a bit of 3/4 inch pipe if student fails to respond according to instruction !!! I learnt in a side by side open framed with probably one of the best instructors around . The first flight was probably the scariest thing I had expereinced but after settling down, found learning a heap of fun and hard work !Brian

[asra]

In the briefing prior to first flight, it is important to emphasize the statements, "Handing over" and "Taking over", so there is no misunderstanding and practice it initially on the ground before the first flight and any subsequent flight which may involve intense concentration.On my Tandem Gyro or Gyros the throttle levers are sufficiently long and easy enough to operate with just a fore finger and thumb and restricts the Student from holding it in his fist, they are connected in line and in such a way that my hand is always under the Students Arm which makes it easy to push his hand away from the throttle in an emergency.Because the Instructor sits in the rear seat, the rear controls are also set up to overide the front by 30percent.Jeff H-S

[asra]

a tandam was my pic and although not fussy i was lucky enough to have my way.if a light weight like russ can handle me there is no forseable problem. when a student starts learnin when he's gonna get hit and ducks, he just pulls you back by your seat belt and starts beatin **** out of your helmet!!!in hindsight, i would only train in a tandem if i was an instructor, as if i had thinner skin and him just there next to me, there might have bin a frustration induced scuffle.when solo'n there is enough pressure already, you dont need to feel lost as there is no one just there next to you to save you, and there's plenty of flyin that can be done with no comunication in a tandem to show you what it feels like to make your own decisions!!!i would recomend a tandem to any one thinkin of training or being trained!!!