I scratched "Persistence"

[asra]

the pic is one in a thousand ,,, my Dad took it just before the gyro flopped ofer due to a nice gust of wind ... it took aprox 1/2 a second from skipping along flight to a big dust cloud ! rotor is tatally toast and one prop blade broken one slightly bent control rod to the rotor head and the rudder control tube took a hit and will have to be replaced ... other than that Persistance is a tough O'l bird she'll fly again ! here's the pic.c ya Bob.....Image Insert: 29.32

[asra]

BobSorry to hear about the roll over, but glad you are OK.But mate , it's only a matter of time untill you are not so lucky.You've got to get some lessons. When I was a student, as much as I wanted to fly in gusty crosswind conditions, my instructor made it clear to me what could happen, and made me stay on the ground. You need someone with the necessary skills to guide you through this dangerous stage.Also, get youself some protective clothing and wear it.Ross B

[asra]

Bob, sorry to hear that. Bitumen or tarmac, as you guys call it I think, is not really suitable for those early flights even when you have had training. It does grip the tyres instead of allowing some skidding.I hate to tell you this but it was not a gust of wind Bob, it was the fact you don't have any automatic skills yet. I appears to me in the pic (it is a great pic!!) that the stick is still in the centre. In other words, you have not reacted yet and you are going over. [:0]Teaching yourself is not good, and at best expensive. Now, if you were 20 years old you would have more chance with the quicker reflexes of youth!!!!!I remember one guy back in the mid 90s that bent 4 sets of rotors and associated other bits like props etc. before he got flying, and he still could not fly safely. He just did not know it!!!I could have trained him for the cost of one roll over!!!Two years ago he crashed it again and ended up with back injuries[B)] and he still is not a safe flyer!!!!Aussie Paul.[]www.firebirdgyros.com

[asra]

Bob I love that Photo, its a "Classic" , and as sad as it is, you will never forget !!!!!!!!!!!!!!P.S dont fly in any wind, and if you have to, then a light head wind.Also have someone experienced test fly your machine first, as it may require trimming, which may be one of the reasons it did wht it did. Regards Sam. [V]

[asra]

Thanks guys ! Yep Paul the stick is in the middle .... I had absoultly no time to react there was no wind at all when we started to test hop the thing...made 4 trips up and down the run way ... getting pregressively faster ... was at arround 40 to 45 mph and the craft was just lightly skipping the runway I was concerned with keeping her stright and level when all of a sundden the left side went up as well as the back end ... I didn't expect it at all and that was probly the problem... it has never done that before ! sense i wasn't realy off the ground yet I kept the stick planted in the middle ...in retrospect I should have jabbed it to the left to kill the lift on that side .... but the benson manual says its important to keep the stick centered when your still on the ground ... i was doing just that and all of a sudden it tried to go ass over tea-kettle on me ... it happened so darn fast i had time to realise it was only on one wheel and i stabbed the left rudder ... then dust everywhere .... it was definately a spactulactuar Crash ! the rotors hit the ground at flight speed ... there isn't enough left to burry of them ! hehehehe Both times I have had problems I believe it has had alot to do with the unpredictable winds at this airport ... that is why it was closed down after all ... ..... there is no doubt in my mind that even an experienced pilot would have had problems with what happened to me today ... Not saying that some of you couldn't have pulled it off ... but there was simply no time to react... i'm not lieing 2 tenths of a second and it was slideing on the ground on its side....I went back this afternoon on the bike to look for the driveline piece that came off .... never did find it .... and got looking at the tracks.... 2 tire skidmarks from the left tire and the front wheel veired slowly towards the side of the run way , then pieces of blue foam everywhere from the rotors ! at least the dammage was minimal ... the rotor was already banged up .... and the prop is fixable the pre rotator pully has a dent in it so I'll replace it ... but other than that its realy minor dammage considering how hard it hit ! Maybe i'll replace the rotor with a wing instead.... heheheheheshe won't be flying again this year ... maybe by spring .... depends on how the rotor makeing goes ! C ya !Bob......" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

By the way Paul... the Gyro handled great today .. the 4ft hub bar made a big diference it wanted to fly this time ... it wasn't stuck to the pavement ...I realy think i should find some place LOWER in elevation so i don't have to go so darn fast to get off the ground ! .... all in all its a minor set back... sucks that it happened at all but thats the way it goes ... strange thing is while we were picking up the pieces the air was calm as it was before we started then a gust hit that nearly took my hat off .... had to be at least a 15mph gust.... nether one of us noticed weather or not a gust actually hit me and the gyro earlier .... I asume a gust of wind did it ...... but hard enough to push the gyro side ways to leave skid marks ? that defies logic ! I dunno I'm still trying to figure out what the heck happened hehehehehehhe ! C ya !Bob........" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[mrford61]

quote:Originally posted by Bob K...... there is no doubt in my mind that even an experienced pilot would have had problems with what happened to me today ... No doubt......a gust of wind is extreme.

[asra]

BobI give up..... Second thoughts, best bet at this stage is to install a very large roll cage, you should be able to get one of those second hand at the auto wreckers. Make sure you pick a real heavy one. With this installed it will keep you safe in the roll over situation, as well as make sure you and your machine never leave the ground.Bob your roll over was due to lack of pilot training and skill. One of the skills of a pilot is to be able to determine suitable conditions to fly in. Yes mate, at the end of the day training is cheap compared to the cost of rebuilds and rotor blades.Ross B

[asra]

quote:

Originally posted by Bob K...... there is no doubt in my mind that even an experienced pilot would have had problems with what happened to me today ...

Me old mate Bob, I don't want to be rude but that is BULL***T. An experienced pilot knows 2 tenths of a second before it is going happen!!!!! I reckon Birdy knows the night before!!![]Sorry.Aussie Paul.[]www.firebirdgyros.com

[asra]

quote:Originally posted by Bob K...... there is no doubt in my mind that even an experienced pilot would have had problems with what happened to me today ... Not saying that some of you couldn't have pulled it off ... but there was simply no time to react... i'm not lieing 2 tenths of a second and it was slideing on the ground on its side....Bob,The purpose of training is to teach us techniques for dealing with less than perfect conditions. One of the first things a student learns is to always look DOWN the runway during the takeoff roll or when landing. Why? Because if you're looking towards the end of the runway you can see any slight deviation of the aircraft's yaw or roll early on, and you will have much more time to react before the aircraft's divergence becomes dangerous.Please, Please, Please, get some quality Dual training. Your primary reason for not doing so, money, has already become less convincing. How many hours of dual training will it cost you to repair your machine? If you seriousely injure youself, how much will that be worth??? Sometimes stuborness and determination need to give way to prudence and experience.GET SOME DUAL TRAINING BEFORE YOU SERIOUSELY INJURE YOURESELF!!!

[asra]

Yup I bet Birdy knows the night before too ! hehehehhe You don't have to convience me it was "Pilot error " boys ... I know that ... as for the conditions they were perfect..best I've seen at this airport ! but that may not be saying much at all sense they did close it down due to the trees causeing turbulance arround it .I know what your saying Paul ... experience would have made all the diference in the world ! Probly so ! .... infact i don't doubt it at all because it cought me by complete supprise that the ass of the gyro came off the ground first ! I was expecting the front to come off As for the cost of repairs guys it will be quite minimal ... I'll make my own rotor blades and make a new prop and be back in business in short order I can't afford to go out and buy stuff like you guys do if its scratched .... and you keep harping on instructions when instructions are simply NOT available ! closest instructor is in portland OR.. at least 600 or 700 miles away ... and at 150 bucks an hour I couldn't afford to take the instructions if he was next door so whats the point of telling me to get instructions ? God knows I need instructions ... I wish i could take them but i can't so, I have to do the best I can with what I got ... its that simple !.... and before you start telling me that you travled 20000 miles to get instructions you obviously had the bucks to do it with or you wouldn't have been able to in the first place.... you rationalize repair costs with the cost of an instructor .... I doubt I have paid out $500.00 on total repair on my gyro to date and I have rebuilt it after one flop over and one redesigning ..for 4 years !.. its now a good aircraft I believe and it didn't cost me $12,000 dollars to get eather... I will rebuild it once again in the same mannor as i have in the past .... scroungeing up parts i need saveing for a month ot buy a gallon of fiberglass reson .... thats just how it is ...you guys don't seam to appreaciate that .... you all have so much money that you can just go do it ... well not everyone is so fortunate as that ....... I'm not asking for your pitty because I'm poor but it would be nice if one or two of you realised that not everyone is made of money ! I saw a discussion on Rotery wing forem that just about put it into prespective, the guys were discussing if they lost their gyro in some axident how long would it be before they would be flying again, or how bad would it hurt them financially.... Most said they would be hurt financially but they would fly again .... in a few months another words , they have enough money to rebuild, buy all new parts and replace stuff in doubt.... in a few months in my case it would be a few years if ever we don't even live in the same world ... yet you tell me to get instructions from a guy in portland Or. 600miles away at $150 bucks an hour for God only knows how many hours.... and I'll be safer to everyone arround me .... thanks alot guys your a big help !You might try telling me what I should have done ..., like tilt the rotor left or something... but instead you say get instructions ....great ! thanks alot !Bob....... " Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

O.K., Bob. Let me be as direct as I can and then I'll shut up about it once again.Not only is what you're doing illegal, it is terribly unwise. You're flying out of an airport that you admit was closed because of poor wind conditions -- probably one of the worst possible places to learn. Not only don't you have any training, but you're trying to fly an unproven machine that very well might have some dangerous design flaws -- I don't know that it does, but you don't KNOW that it doesn't, either. And, of course, now you're going to put unproven, homemade blades on this already untested machine. You don't appear to be following any kind of organized training plan and don't appear to have even a basic understanding about how to fly a gyro. The vast majority of the people I've heard of who have survived self-training approached it with great caution and deliberation, and had more than a little luck along the way. They followed Bensen's guide religiousely and worked very hard and long to UNDERSTAND what they were reading and doing, and a lot of them STILL paid with destroyed blades and machines. Flying is always dangerous, but you are taking so many uneccessary risks everytime you try to fly your gyro that, quit frankly, the only way I see you avoiding serious injury or death is if you contnue to destroy your machine before it can ever get off the ground. It's very important that you understand that, if you ever do get your gyro in the air, a loss of control or a mechanical failure, even from very low altitudes, can very easily be fatal. But I don't expect you to listen to me, or to anyone else who has advised you not to continue what you're doing.Even more than knowledge, experience, skill and a bit of luck, a pilot's most important asset is GOOD JUDGEMENT. You are certainly lucky.

[asra]

Bob, Bob, Bob, Maybe if you can't afford it, find another hobby, In case you haven't found out by now, aviation is very unforgiving of the slightest mistake, at this rate you might want to consider building a pine box along with the next set of rotorblades. I would try to find a way to get training, instead of getting dead. just my opinion, have a great day.

[asra]

Gentlemen,In reguards to the Bob K. saga, I think the time for niceties is long past, to use an old expression, we are all "Pissing in the wind" trying to drum any sense into him, he has no intention of listening to any common sense advise, so I ask, has anyone been documenting this saga, because the way this is unfolding (and I have seen it before) the yanks may need it for a coronial inquiry.Pete Barsden

[asra]

Bob,Have you flown a gyro-glider, or towed your powered-machine to check out the handling?. I may be less critical than others, as I am self-training, so far without problems.I would look for a flat field of grass rather than a tar/concreterunway. Grass is more forgiving. Maybe you need a more structured approach to it all.Bensen implies that you'll be flying in no time at all, but thisis not true. On the other hand, the Bensen manual, if followed in detail, breaks the whole thing down into manageable steps.Please take it slowly and carefully.The photo looks like you may have been travelling too fast with thenosewheel still on the ground. This could easily result in one wheellifting even without a gust. If not corrected (almost immediately),you are in the dirt.Question; Has this machine been flown by anyone else?. Is it a known and flown design?. If the answer is no to both questions, you areon a hiding to nothing.Best regardsFergus Kavanagh.