Passenger carrying/ Cross country

[Ken Watson]

Thanks for your reply Mark and glad to see that there is atleast two of us who think alike. Any other people wishing to share their thoughts on passenger carrying?Robert, as peter said the engines are working hard and failures cannot always be predicted. I had a crank snap in half on a 503, and also on an ea81(low hour). I was also misled about the hours on a 503 that I purchased, which had a fuel pump failure and subsequent seizure. Another was a dicky ignition switch which was brand new (put on just to be safe). Planes crash in these situations, gyro's can be landed quite safely--- probably even with a passenger without a compass. Peter, what do you think on the passenger situation? Ken(troversy)

[NiqueNaque]

Here's the difference between gyros and FW a/cPut a FW at the end of a run way in trim and fire wall the throttle, it will take off and fly until it runs out of petrol...Put a gyro at the end of a runway and fire wall the throttle and you will crash into the fence without leaving the ground.Moral of the story - gyro's need more respect than fixed wing air craft, and hence take more time to learn to fly properly.Cheers,Nick.

[asra]

PS: I said that I would know when I was experienced enough to carrya passenger ! I wont change my view of that. If my Instructor saidthat I was ready, but if I had the slightest doubt I wouldn't do it.Nor would I argue with him if he said that I wasn't ready.Piloting any aircraft is not a Mug's game !Competant and experienced enough to do it safely is the true reallity, not a given number of hours flown ( and by that I mean that the minimum allowed may not be sufficient ) or whether you have a Nav ticket. In no way does a Nav ticket suggest competance or safety to be a passenger carrying PIC.Therefore I have to agree with Ken.The rule as it stands, to me is wrong, and it should be left to theinstructor to decide.I also realise that Gyro Piloting is more or less in its infancyand we have a way to go yet. I want to see them in the ExperimentalGA catergory, or used commercially and flying safely and legallyat night ( not Commercial ), and also IFR !This is not going to happen untill we get a new generation ofPilots and Builders willing to spend the money and bring the Gyro of age !PS to the above PS :I thought that a 914 turbo would be ok for the Firebird ? Maybe.I now think that the new Rotax V6 will be the way to go, not forgetting the Thielert Diesel !Either of these engines should handle 80% power cruise safelyover any terrain. Day or night.Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.

[asra]

Ken you asked me my opinion on the present need to get a cross-country endorsement before a passenger endorsement unlike other disciplines. It is my experience and my observations of others that it does take more time to get proficient at flying gyros than fixed-wing aircraft. I would say that a pilot is becoming safe after 30 hours of uneventful solo training, but would still certainly not need the distraction of a passenger, with the logbook having about 50 hours up. Unlike fixed wing that can be flown by the numbers, gyros fly by feel and that takes time for the brain to get it right. By compelling the new pilot to undergo cross-country training just expands his experiences and ability to concentrate on more than just flying which is very beneficial. It may seem like an unnecessary step to have to take prior to taking up your friends, but one I believe ensures a higher level of safety in our sport. I have seen my fair share of death over my life-time and a lot of it was caused by impatience and inexperience. Robert, your comments on wanting to see gyros become as professional as fixed-wing with IFR ratings etc. is interesting but to my mind shows a degree of naivety on your part. They have been around for 80 years now, but have been overlooked at a form of mainstream aviation for good reason. Flying is about going places fast and RAA aircraft have been developing along those lines. Our gyros are draggy and unable to be developed to fly at the higher speeds. Additionally they are very different and difficult to fly at higher altitudes. If you have not been up there beyond 5000 feet in a gyro then you will not understand what I am saying, but it is the case. They do what they do beautifully and I get a buzz each and every flight but they do come with severe limitations and I believe they will never become mainstream.Pete

[asra]

Pete, I know the history of the Gyro and I have often said that Ihave never flown one. Nor have I said that they could compete withFW as a mainstream commercial enterprise.But I do feel that they have a place amongst the professional ranks.Lets take the Magni as an example. Its often referred to as theRolls Royce of Gyro's, why. Because its well designed, well engineered and has a good safety record. That makes it expensive andthat I think is what has held the Gyro back ( money ). With a well maintained Magni I would be no more concerned about tiger country than a FW and far less worried about it than a helicopter. I also feel that it would be a joy to fly on those moonlight nights and with an experienced IFR rated pilot could be flown safely thru heavy cloud cover ( note that I didnt say rain ) and be safer to put downif you had to.Nor do I think that they are suitable for high altitude bank runs.Now lets consider some suitable aspects.Fire spotting, fisheries patrol, beach patrol, national parks and wildlife, search and rescue aid ( not always recovery ), rural highway patrol etc etc. All of these applications are quite do able in a well engineered Gyro and far less expensive to maintain andoperate than helicopters and FW.From what I have seen so far Paul is on the right track with theFirebird. It has enormous potential world wide but wont be cheapto bring it to a commercial level, tho far cheaper than any Helo !I think it has huge potential in Africa for instance, around theNational Parks. They use slow and low FW like the Zenair built fromkits. Firebird would be ideal to patrol with and could even earnthem money flying a tourist around for a looksee.There are any number of commercial applications for a well engineeredand properly powered Gyro and they will leave the helicopter for dead money wise.We should be looking forward and ahead to the future.Nobody will convince me otherwise.Cheers.PS: Here in my area we have a problem with illegal netting of the creeks and rivers. It is a vast area to patrol with limited manpowerand resources. Now with a well equipted Firebird they could patrollage areas quickly and cheaply and be in contact with officers onthe ground to take action. Also, they are in a good position toobserve chemical runoff and contamination. Now think about to wholeof the QLD coast, top to bottom and picture the Gyro's at work.I can and do.Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.

[asra]

Below is a pic of an African National parks and Wildlife Zenairpatrol plane.Cute eh.I think a Firebird will be a much better and more versitile proposition. You could put it down anywhere to round up poachersfor instance.Image Insert: 27.32

[wflaks]

[Des Garvin]

Thanks for that small piece of gyro history Wal it is very informative. Sorry I cannot answer your question.What you focus on grows. Des Gravin

[asra]

Very interesting story Walter. With all that emotion and direct speech I conclude you were in the office with Kirby and the DCA and a party to that conversation. Well done.Pete

[Ken Watson]

Wal and Des, whats your opinion on the cross country/ passenger endorsement situation? I'm realy after a cross section of opinion on this to understand where the members stand.Peter, would you think a longer single seat period would be more appropriate or a period of carrying a dummy or sandbag? I'm with Telf in that a Gregory's hasn't made me drive safer with passengers in the car. I think a tougher test on driver ability is the answer. KenP.s. Noticed that no one has rushed to answer my questions about accident rates in regards to cross country endorsements or passenger endorsements. We are not all immune from accidents, but this data would provide an interesting base from which to draw a logical conclusion.

[asra]

Hi Ken, Good Question. I believe both are what is needed. The 80 hours in a single seater to develop the skills and experience to be able to handle a larger two seater which will fly very differently. Then a further period alone in the larger gyro to complete the preparation. The 'Gregorys' analogy is just silly. The Gregorys is only the equivilent of our Maps and Charts, but we are discussing the skills of the pilot here. If you want a relevant analogy then look no further than Victorian Road Regulations which are about to change the lives of Probationary Licence Holders. In recognition that P Platers are still killing themselves even after passing more elaborate and difficult licence tests, it has been reported that they will soon be prohibited from carrying passengers in their first 12 months. They have to undergo advanced driving courses during their probationary period which is being extended yet another year from three to four. This is of course in recognition that simply passing a test does not equip a driver to drive safely and there is no substitute for experience and training. They have tried the tougher test idea and it just hasn't helped.Pete

[asra]

Mr Flaks, If that is the Mr Kirby that lived in the Kiosk at the end of St Kilda pier for many years, I work with him for a short time in the 90s. He is a great bloke, and in my top three of the most interesting people I have ever come across.Daryl Patterson

[asra]

Hi Wal, I asked a CFI friend re your question if a training area can be contained within a training area. He laughed at me stating it was like a cloud within a cloud. It is still a cloud. He stated that he wrote an Operation Manual for training that he had approved by CASA when he began his Operations. This Manual describes the training area that he uses, but he is not restricted to it. It is basically the local CTAF with the attachment of an area deemed less populated. Some larger airports can have an official training area that is sanctioned by CASA and are on the appropriate charts, but most are not. The question he asked me is why would you want a training area within a training area anyway. Can you enlighten us please?Pete

[wflaks]

[wflaks]

Hi DarylI only met Mr.Kirby on 2 occasions I forgot his first name only that lived somewhere in Melbourne, true he is a gentleman and very knowledgeable person.The other person is Geoff Kaye, he lives somewhere in Sydney. I think he was one of the first presidents of A.S.R.A. He was telling me about their rotor blades and hub bar design. They compared their design against Bensons, C.A.S.A made a high speed film of these tests and possibly still have them. I think our technical department should investigate this, and see if we can benefit from this information.Walter