Passenger carrying/ Cross country

[wflaks]

[Ken Watson]

I'm more interested in common sense. If the rule was 200hrs before the endorsement then I would have to accept it and would. Pete, read some of the incidents and give me your thoughts. Look at the qualifications involved and then tell me if the cross country is relevant. Like I said before, the pilots ability and the machine are the main influence on the passengers safety. Thorough pre-flights and a confident ability in crisis situations will save a life. 'Geez, I forgot to put petrol in, but dont worry, I've got a cross country endorsement'. To put it mildly a coroner would have had a field day with some of the occurances if a fatality had been involved. Read some and see what you think. I'm quite prepared to go to 500hrs if thats the rule but I think I might just buy a Jabiru to keep the wife involved. It's difficult to justify a sport that only one person in the family can participate in. Wal, spot on. On my first solo I had an engine failure and landed in the middle of a paddock at peak hill with no damage. Good instructor-good outcome. Plenty of engine out practice and putting into practice what youve learnt, the key to survival.Most of my landings are simulated engine outs.We are managing to over-regulate ourselves . Ken

[asra]

Hi Wal, we have to agree to disagree on the issue of what is more difficult to learn to fly safely. As an aside I owned a flew a Thruster and got a handle on it far faster than when I learnt to fly a gyro, but that was only me.Ken, I really do follow your logic re what should come first and hope you follow mine that regardless how strictly relevant both endorsements are, by going the extra mile does help ensure a higher degree of competence. It would be very unsatisfactory for all concerned if you gave up gyros for jabs just because of the need for this endorsementbut I just can't imagine passing this qualification would be difficult for a keen pilot. If you went to a Jabiru, you would soon have to go get one anyway as flying around a 25 mile area at 120 kph would soon loose its appeal.Pete

[Ken Watson]

I like sports where the whole family can participate. I've done the selfish things before and have grown out of that. I enjoyed your intelligent argument Pete,but I am just sick of the goal post moving.If you read my scenario you'll see what I mean. Thanks for your input. Ken

[asra]

Hi KenYour cross country endorsment is quiet basic, easy, and lots of fun.It will prepare one for flying into CTAF's, airspace regulations, navigation, both reading map to ground, and navigational bearings.You will learn about fuel burn rates, and radio usage in and around our airspace. The whole cross country endorsment will take only one day, and comprise of a theory, and prac exam. (I'm sure you already know all this)If you decide to go FW and get it with a Jab, you can then transfere it across to ASRA without any exams whatsoever.Not sure if this helps, but it is the only way around our blue tape.Regards Sam.

[Brian]

Sam, I support all you say there. I personally think that the C/C endorsement is a good thing, it is a bit tough that the ultralighters do not have the same requirements but the ASRA board have done a pretty good job overall .When you consider the hours they put in to ASRA for no finacial gain the job they do is pretty darn good and there's no way I could do the job that any of them do !!Brian

[wflaks]

Am I missing some point here?I thought that life and limb safety would apply to both single seat Gyro pilots as well to passengers. Single seat Gyro pilots can kill themselves, no problem, but lookout if your Mrs is with you in the Gyro, no matter how good pilot you are.Walter

[asra]

Hi Dave,As I see it once you are authorised to fly there will be nothing stopping you flying your two seat gyro without a passenger endorsement so long as you fly up there alone. Good luck with your project and training. Pete

[asra]

G'day Wal,The local airport (CTAF in the old lingo) is 5 and a half NM from my front fence. The local flying club has a BBQ there the last Fri of every month. I would love to hop in my machine and fly over and join them. To drive, I gotta go 5 miles to the highway, 5 miles along the highway, and then 5 miles back to the airport (a big U shape and some of it rough). And the same distance coming home. I checked with the regional CASA man to get permission to fly into the local airport. He said there was an easy way and a hard way. The easy way was to 1. Get a letter from the local commercial GA operator saying he was happy for me to fly there: 2. Get a radio operators licence and carry and operate a VHF airband radio: 3. Get a cross-country endorsement from either AUF or GA: 4. Make sure my machine was registered: 5. Make sure I was licenced: 6. Install an aircraft approved strobe on my machine: 7. Gat permission from the airport owner/manager. I didn't bother to ask him what the "hard" way was. I've done most of these things but haven't got around to applying yet. Figured I'd wait until ASRA was in a position to authorize. What's all this got to do with your passenger endorsement? Bugger all. Except that it demonstrates that no matter what we do now days, we are heading closer to regulation. It comes from living near other people. If I lived in a position where I only flew over my own property (like some of the blokes out back) then I might consider not complying with any of the regs. (I said "MIGHT"). Having a licence will not make me any better pilot than I already am. Having my machine registered won't (per se) make me any better or safer pilot. Very few things that the Government, or CASA, or ASRA can regulate me for will make me a better pilot. Only training, practice and maintenance will make me better and safer. I notice Ken got a little "stalky" about my post on the coroner. It was not my intention to get into Ken. If I wanted to get up Kens nose, I wouldn't do it from a thousand kilometers away by flapping my gums. I was merely pointing out that there are other considerations except whether a cross country endorsement "will or won't" make someone a more competent pilot. I spent half my life working in the Timber industry in East Gippsland. From bushwork, bush fires to sawmills. At one stage 1 out of 3 tree fellers were getting killed during their working lifetime. Of the remaining 2 (out of the 3) all had at least one accident which involved at least a year off work. All of the 3 had several accidents which necessitated more than 3 months off work (all of this statistically, before anyone starts on about knowing some-one who "didn't"). The workers comp. premium amounted to 97 cents for every dollar earnt. Sorta makes the gyro look spectacularly safe and cheap. Obviously this scene was unsustainable, and Govt introduced mandatory safety and training/licensing regs. I recall some people actually arguing against wearing "hard hats" while falling trees. ("What goods a hard hat when a 80 tonne tree falls on ya?"). Ya don't have to be real bright to figure out that some deaths/injuries come from small branches the size of a broom handle. When they fall from 250 feet, they get up enough velocity to go through the top of your skull, spear your brain and impale your tongue before exiting between your bottom jaw and your adams apple and continuing into the dirt between your feet. (completely buggering up your day). The hard hat minimizes those sort of deaths/injuries. It's all incremental (every little bit helps). Industry workers comp rate today is down to around 8% and nearly everyone has an expectation that they live to eat there tea each day. With half a lifetime involved in this type of thing you see that I do have a little experience with coroners, I do know what some of them look like, and from experience have got a rough idea of how they think. Walter and Ken. I'm with you. I don't like any of the regulations. I don't want to hold a licence (quiet, Llewella), I don't want to register my machine, I don't need a x-country endorsement (in 10 years flying gyros, Ive never been more than 25 miles from home unless I took it on a trailer), I don't see how any of those things makes me a better or safer pilot. But if I want to fly legal, then someone has to grant me a licence. Some one has to vouch for me. Some-one I don't even know. And who doesn't even know me. And who volunteers for the job. And who doesn't get paid. I accept that they might want a few assurances about my capacities, especially as it is they who will have to explain why they gave me a licence if I do something and it goes wrong. Hell, (remember) CASA wants a x-country endorsement for me to fly 5 and a half miles in a straight line over flat ground to the local airport in a single seater. No passenger.I don't think the passenger endorsement is about taking my missus for a fly around the airport. If something goes wrong, its unlikely that she will sue me. If I take my brother in law for a fly and kill him, my sister isn't going to sue me (he's abit of a ******* anyway, so she might even cut me in for a some of the life insurance). A passenger endorsement is about passengers. It's not practical to have a passenger endorsement that is endorsed "missus only", or "Brother in law only". A passenger is a passenger. Remember all those blokes who reckoned you were a raving lunatic for flying one of those "death traps"? And you spent some time convincing them how safe they were? If you kill one of them, then their missus is gonna want to know who authorized you to carry him as a passenger. The coroner is gonna want to know. And he is gonna want to know why. Going the extra few yards to demonstrate additional competence isn't gonna break us. My experience of coroners and safety suggests that the more you do, the better you look. And no, it won't stop you running out of fuel. Those sort of things demonstrate personal neglect, and reflect on the individual, rather than the gyro movement.Good luck. Good flying. I'm outta here!Fred(who just might have wasted another 10 minutes of his life)

[Ken Watson]

I'm going to do the cross country , the point I'm trying to make is I don't understand the logic behind the change.I don't understand the logic I have encoutered in that it is not reasonable for me to do the test from my own strip because I know the area too well. Or to fly from this property 200km to one of my other properties because I know everything in between too well. Or the 80 to 100hrs confusion. See the reason for my frustration. I was told I may have to go interstate to do the test. This saga has just been a pain and I could have been finished in an ultralight in the time I've wasted. I accept anyones criticism and Don't mind but remember you may face the same pedantic problem one day.

[Brian]

Ken, I'm with you re "you know the area too well " !! So what . You still have to fly a heading and do the calculations correctly and know how to flight plan and the rules etc. I learnt to fly [FW] in Mildura, I know the area very well and also the area to Adelaide very well also but my instructor didnt change any of the navs just because I knew the area. There is no way you should have to travel interstate to do the CC!!Anyway, best of luck !Brian

[Ken Watson]

Good news. After all this typing he has now agreed to let me do it here, although he still has reservations. But I don't care as long as I can do the test.Bythe way he doesn't understand the relevance of the CC to the Passenger endorsement either.Apparently you weren't allowed to fly more than 25mls from the strip with a passenger under the old rules. Ken

[Brian]

Thats good news Ken.Like I said before, you still have to know the bookwork and how to do the calculations etc and fly acurately and well plus the instructor can throw in plenty of stuff to test you such as diversions etc.Brian

[asra]

Brian,Yes, I remember getting hit with a diversion on all my different direction nav's when I was one and a half hour away from home (Jandakot Airport), talk about needing six hands and two legs (laps).Pete Barsden

[asra]

Its worth all of the study and angst just to be able to fly any aircraft cross country.Being able to navigate an aircraft around the country gives one a feeling of satisfaction when the destination hoves into sight. All pilots should endeaver to remain competant with the skill tho, and not just rely on the Gps.Ken, if you take it seriously you will find navigation a very interesting subject and on a flight you can involve your passenger in the navigation also and help to relieve their boredom and addto their pleasure.Cheers.PS: I would also buy the little Jabiru and enjoy the best of bothworlds !Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.