Passenger carrying/ Cross country

[wflaks]

PeteKnowledge is your greatest asset.Please stay focused on the question.There are other member who would like to learn.If you know the answer, than asnwer it.Walter

[asra]

your wrong Wal. Health is your greatest asset followed family and principles, then maybe knowledge. Go get an endorsement if you haven't already got one. It might be good for your health.Pete

[wflaks]

Pete thank you for your reply.The question isCan anyone tell me if a training area must be certain shape?Pete,do you know the answer? Walter

[Waddles]

Wal,I must be missing something here. Section 2.08 refers to a Senior Instructor Rating. I expect that you are referring to Section 2.05. Don't worry, I suffer from dyslexia as well.There is no provision that I can see to allow the Ops Manager to give approval for the scenario you mention. The limitations are quite clear. If you want to carry a passenger even for a circuit, you must have the appropriate endorsement.Your question appears to be directed to the requirement to hold a cross country endorsement as a prerequisite for the passenger carriage endorsement. I understand the workings of GA and the RAA. As mentioned previously, it is not appropriate to pick the nice bits from each discipline and apply them to gyros. Along with the nice bits come the drawbacks. I believe that overall, we are better off that using either total RAA or GA concepts. To make a fair comparison will have to wait until I get home where I have access to the RAA documentation in hard copy. Don't however, let this dissuade you from continuing the discussion.Paul referred to the 25 mile limitation. This is covered in Section 2.01. Regards,Waddles.Having just re-read some of the above posts, I see that Wal is referring to Section 2.05 para 8, and can understnd his query now. It lies in the statement in the first sentence which states "....unless approved by the Ops Manager .....".This allows the Ops Manager the discretion required to recognise the endorsements issued by the RAA, GA, GFA, HGFA and overseas authorities. I don't believe that it was ever intended that this discretion be used for the purpose Wal suggests.Waddles.

[Waddles]

Gidday Wal,Regarding training areas:These are normally associated with aerodromes that are known to support significant training activities. Where CASA or the appropriate authority has assessed the need, a specific area is set aside, gazetted and published in the regulations, the ERSA and on several different types of avigation charts. Most training areas so designated are assigned a specific danger area number from which the vertical limits and hours of operation can be determined. Pilots with cross country endorsements should be familiar with these areas as they are covered during their training.Where an aerodrome does not have a specific area assigned as described above, local training facilities usually get together, and in consultation with local authorities and the owner and or operator of the airstrip determine an appropriate area where training will be conducted. Lateral and vertical limits in this case are determined by the airspace surrounding the airstrip.This is one reason why it is important to contact local aviators at an aerodrome that is not familiar to you, to determine such information as well as other local agreed flying rules.Does this help at all?Waddles.

[asra]

Walter, Training areas differ from aerodrome to aerodrome. Local CFI's can advice you of the various shapes associated with each individual aerodrome.TedStrongly opposed to the retriction of free speech

[asra]

Gentle Bodies,I know that this is properly not relevent to our situation, however, when I was down at Jandakot Airport doing my expensive FW stint, I was allowed to take a passenger on the approval of the CFI only after I had passed my GFPT, and only out to and around the training area, this was prior to my even more expensive Nav, exercises, Jandakot at that point in time had the tower operating from O800hrs to 1800hrs, the tower has since closed.Pete Barsden

[wflaks]

[Ken Watson]

My reason for the question was that I don't really like to travel far but would like to be able to take the wife for a spin every now and then. My local instructor does not want to give me the cross country exam because i know all the country within 5 hrs like the back of my hand. Even had to help him out one day when he got disorientated. He thinks I should go interstate to do the test. To me this is a bit of overkill, especially when all the blokes in ultralights and trikes are carrying passengers around here with no cross country endorsements and a lot less hours than me(150+). I dont want pity, but being in line with other disciplines could be advantageous. It's funny that a few instructors turn up at my place and ask me to take them for a spin in my machine and seem very happy with the way I fly.Personally I think the initial student pilot test should be harder. After witnessing the simulated emergency landings and carrier decks at Cooma I think cross country are the least of your worries. I've had a few engine outs and landed in some damn tight spots and not bent anything. The cross country wont help the passenger when you are faced with this position. I think a compromise rule is needed for people such as myself, who really don't want to fly too far. Should we maybe have a rule for people who have accidents of a 12 month probation? I bet there will be a few who cry foul over that. Or maybe a point system like our car licenses. There will be a few people sitting it out if that happened. Not trying to be a smartarse but trying to offer a bit of logic. Ken

[asra]

Ken,Why dont you ask one of those visiting Instructors to sign youoff on the cross country ?Cheers.Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.

[Ken Watson]

Not that simple. Forgot to mention that I'm going to do it anyway. I'm just pointing out the lack of logic and lack of uniformity across the aviation disciplines. If the cross country endorsement is a good check then it would be interesting to know how many people holding these have had accidents in the last 12 months? Or maybe how many endorsed passenger carriers have had accidents in the last 12 months? I think a more logical check would be a vigorous practical test to check the pilot in commands reaction in an emergency and a test on how well he maintains and expects his/her machine. Or if he understands the legal ramifications of carrying a passenger. I think the most important issue is passenger safety. I'm just trying to put some interesting questions out there. Even if you get lost you should be capable of landing . I actually think cross country flight should not be encouraged with passengers. Let the pilot take the risks and be confident in his own ability. Thought i'd better mention that these things seem so slow why would you even bother? Much easier and more comfortable to go with Qantas!

[telf]

I must agree with you, Ken.In the RAA I was eligible to sit for a passenger endorsement after only 10 hours in command after I was signed off for my license.There was no requirement for a Nav endorsement.I believe that ASRA require 80 hours experience and a Nav endorsement.I too find this a bit steep by comparison and no amount of justification will convince me that a Nav ticket has any relevance what-so-ever to carrying a passenger.It seems that there may be 2 assumptions here that I don't agree with-1. Passengers will be carried long distancesOK this will happen but I think it is fairly safe to say that most people will just want to take their partner or mates for a demo flight just to show what this gyro thing is all about.2. A Nav ticket makes you fly saferThis too, I find to be bollocks. I think that the 80 hour thing is probably going to 'force' enough experience on a gyro pilot if then followed by the judgement of the instructor issuing the endorsement. It may sound a bit too bloody obvious but a nav ticket, when passed, shows that you can navigate.It is not based on whether you can fly or not. That was the job of the instructor issuing the pilot certificate 80 hours before.OK so thats my rant, over to others...telfFlying - The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. (Douglas Adams-The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

[asra]

My own view is that I would know when I'm competant and experienced enough to carry a passenger. I am also alarmed about the apparent number of engine outs amongst the Gyro community. I take aircraft maintenance very seriously and I would be aghast if I had an engine out due to the lack of it.As far as Qantas and the rest go, bugger them, you not only putyour life in their hands but also your Liberty ! If I couldn't flymyself, I would'nt go, full stop.As far Gyro's and cross country go, I think they are ok. Yes theyare slower but you can make the flight enjoyable by sight seeingalong the way and not be in any hurry to begin with.I would not trailer a gyro to the Nationals. Also, being able to pop over to Hamilton Island for lunchwith the Wife in a Gyro sounds good to me. Bugger combing your hair,finding and polishing the thong, driving to the airport, hanging around, sitting in the sun for hours while they check out some spilt baby formula, then have to go thru it all again to get home. To hell with that.Cheers.Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.

[asra]

Hi Robert and Mark. I think you will find that it is deemed more difficult to master the gyro than a fixed wing hence it takes more time to become sufficiently proficient to be entrusted with a passenger. Many may boohoo this suggestion but it is the reason why Instructors don't allow students to solo in their machines with sandbags beside. We know that low hours gyro pilots are at real risk of crashing the gyro compared with our fixed-wing cousins and competence and confidence comes with many hours of practice. As far as engine reliability factor Robert, it is not so much lack of maintenance but the stress a gyro continually puts the motor under that can cause engine problems. Whilst many current ultralights fly on about 80 percent power our gyros generally cruise using at least 90 percent power. This takes a toll on motors particularly light-weight two-strokes. 65hp motors can become unreliable after just two hundred hours in a gyro, whilst performing without fault for up to four times that in a less draggy two stroke. In relation to four strokes, we don't hear of many 912s or Subies having trouble as they can take the punishment.The other comment of cross-country travel in a gyro enjoying the extra time in the air that slow flight ensures, is not new. We all dream of flying off to all the fly-ins but with one or two exceptions we rarely do. It is an admirable intention to fy to all Nationals in the gyro but usually not feasible, unless it is taken on-board like an adventure rather than a means of travel, for an adventure it will be. Long distance travel in a gyro involves long times in changing weather systems, flying over tiger-country being unable to skirt around it, refueling logistics, and overnight stays in unexpected places. It involves travelling with very little baggage or comforts of home with the real possibility of being caught for days on end somewhere other than you would preferably be, and I know because I have been there. I know of past pilots whose dreams of travelling Australia were shattered after embarking on even short cross-countries and realising their limitations. I fly occasionally with a friend in his RV6 and distance is no impedance, but I would recommend a ground crew if a gyro flight is to be over a signifant distance. So please don't be so harsh on the many pilots who choose to bring their accomodation and creature comforts with them as well as their gyros, and who may be on deadlines to have to be back at home for work the following week.Pete

[asra]

Good points Pete.But please understand that I was not being harsh or critical of other people towing or taking their creature comforts to Nationalsor anywhere else that they choose to go to.It would be rude of me to critisize or tell other people how they should conduct their affairs.In my case, if I had a Gyro I would like to fly it to this yearsNationals, because they will be held down the road, and as you say,it would be an adventure.If they were held in WA next year, I probably wouldn,t go unlesswe were in the Mooney or some other FW.I wouldn't use a Gyro either for my everyday long distance travelbut only on those adventures. My choice would be a Firebird.I also would not personally be bothered with a ground crew. I have at times travelled long distances around the country on motorcycles and slept in me swag. Point is, the Firebird would probably be more comfortable and not much slower than the motorcycle obeying the speed limits.I have a horror of using two strokes in aircraft, I hate the them.When I used to race the things I was always waiting for the buggersto seize up. Yuk. Corse that was way back when but....I am even in two minds about using converted car engines in aircraftas a long term installation. I dont know how they last and at whatintervals they need to be inspected or partially or fully rebuilt ?We all know about Murphies Law and dumping you in it at the wrong time and place.I cant comment on flying a Gyro as I have never flown one so I certainly would not rush the learning curve and think I am bulletproof. Bugger that. But as I said, I would know when I was experienced enough to carry a passenger.Cheers.Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.