Petrol Pump

[asra]

Anyone know where I can get an Ingram #871951 12volt petrol pump? I understand this is recommended for a two stroke setup (582) and is a reliable unit. Had some excitement with my Mikuni and I'm looking to build in a bit of redundancy. Dave

[Ken Watson]

Repco rp100 works well and is about $80. They come in different pressures aswell.I also used one of the gold square ones soob gyros use with success and boughtt it from Autopro for about the same money. Can't remember the name. Ken

[asra]

Thanks Ken,I'm thinking of putting it in parallel with the existing pump. Any thoughts on that as apposed to series? I'm following a thread on Rotary Wing that has good arguments for both! Can I assume if the Repco fails, it fails open? and I'm guessing up to about 5 psi would be OK? Any input appreciated, I'm a beginner here who has decided he doesn't like engine outs []Dave

[asra]

Dave,I had the same thoughts and what i did what to tee off on both sides of the elec one and put the squeeze bubble in between so if the elec one stops the pulse pump can still suck though the sqeeze bubble, because they have a non return valve in them the elec cant just circulate the fuel..Mark

[NiqueNaque]

Dave,You can't assume anything with pumps and the mode of failure, they can fail in many ways.You should have both in parallel for redundancy and check valves on the outlet of each to make sure that neither of them can allow circulation.If you are worried about engine outs then a fuel pressure warning light may be an idea, there was a thread prior where birdy suggested a reserve tank with an air pressure header on it, but I suspect it would still not give you the requisite notice.You would be best learning how to do engine outs properly and progressively by lowering the revs a little at a time and learning how to cope with it until you are comfortable, because, if you have read this forum, engine outs are a common occurence. Just think of it as flying at the ground ... and missing. Failing this, engage in low level therapy, hoist your gyro up by the tail (static and properly supported) with it pointing at the ground in a steep nose down attitude and sit in it, get used to it, or don't fly...If you read your training syllabus, engine out landings are part of your flight training and certification, if you don't like them that is OK, but don't ever fail to be able to do one, your life counts on it. Get some two seater training on this, it is scarey watching the ground coming up, but it is just flying down hill after all, not flying on the flat... go and practice it in your car, imagine yourself flying down hill as you drive down a hill, good therapy for me, maybe good for you as well, even better on a push bike...See this page:http://www.asra.org.au/forum/topic.a...chTerms=tankit may give you some ideas on how to do the fuel pressure warning.Cheers,Nick

[asra]

Nick, there is no need to accept engine outs as a common occurrence. That is just the lack of an effective maintenance schedule.[]You are correct in definately being able to do engine outs as routine. Dave has done the required dual and has no dramas with it. He still has to conduct some more practice with his own machine, but he has already passed the test as he had an engine failure with a succesful fored landing during his approx. 6th solo hour. Well done Dave.[] We believe the failure was due to the age of the pump and the fact that the machine has not done much during the last couple of years. The pulse line was too flexible for my liking and the fuel was low requiring more pump energy to lift the fuel. Dave will add the electric pump for some redundancy. A good investment.We put a new pulse pump on and I belterd it around with low fuel for about 20 mins. It is great flying a single seater with someone elses fuel!!!![8D] A good break from my trainer!!!!Dave I think it needs another couple of hours of me testing that new fuel pump!!!! [^][^]I will be at the training field tomorrow from 9.00am with a student. we flew today for 20 mins. The wind was well over 40 kts at 500'. We ended up over a mile downwind after take off and we never turned!!!!My student has quite a bit of trike time and was able to fly s/level quite well after a couple of minutes. The asi was showing 50 kts but as we know it over reads by approx 7 kts, and the gps showed 2 to 10 kts backwards. I had to fly the mile back at 100' and 70 kts indicated to get there. My student was impressed and is pleased that he has made the decision to build a gyro. He has followed the forums and wants CLT. The word is definately getting out there to the newcomers.[]He has the alloy and a 582, and is now keen to get building.Aussie Paul.www.firebirdgyros.com

[birdy]

Dave,I found if you have them in series and both running at the same time the pressure will be greater than rated.In other words,when I had both rotax pumps runing together on the 914,the pressure went from @ 7psi to @10psi.Not sure if this happens in parallel thou.

[asra]

Nick,Thanks for your training tips. I appreciate your concern for my safety as we all feel a little for our brother and sister pilots, even when we haven't met. Your assumptions of course prompt me to describe what I really though of as a minor inconvenience to the days flying and a bit of a fun story that would need serious embellishing to be worthy of a barby.First up I declare that Paul Bruty is my instructor and that as I type, I am wearing a fireproof suit.The day I was 'signed out' as a solo pilot I chatted with my instructor on what would be good to practice now. We talked about using gradually less and less power on landings, a few hundred revs at a time. I was on my own and did that for an hour finding myself with normal landings to 3000revs but not as tidy getting towards 2100 which is idle on my machine, so I practiced some more at 3000. Had a break, then back into it. I'm used to very long flights in FW but mindful of fatigue in a new type. On a take off I thought I heard a very slight drop in revs, like when you turn your head and the noise changes or sometimes a gust between the hangars can make a slight difference. Being a normal, relaxed, yet cautious pilot I landed ahead and taxied back with the intention of only hoping up to 50' or so to check again. This time it was a definite drop in revs above 4000+rpm. I landed, taxied back, had a look at the engine, it was still there []....I'm not an expert. Figured I wanted more data so I could report accordingly. So another hop, again I'm expecting engine trouble, it was a bit worst but not much.... Taxied back tried again, obviously I'm flying so I have plenty of speed near the ground in case....got to 50' ....alright it was probably lower and I just mushed in but then its not much of a story... ....got to 50' and the noise stopped. I hear the lovely sound of the woosh woosh of the blades. I land normally, get the disk flat quickly as she was going to taxi backwards otherwise as I had 420rrpm... maybe I was 50' [] No drama except I had landed nice and neatly and it was a long way to push it to the hangar. Second thought, check the carby bowls to see if its a fuel issue. Seemed likely as it was playing up in the higher rev range. Only about a third full in the bowls. OK squeeze the bulb...pump... pump...and she started first pull. I got in, taxied back to the hangar, then with the brake on bought the revs up. All working fine. At home I emailed Paul, we met at the field and decided on changing the pump. It is fantastic to have this sort of support. Nope, no charge, just a mate helping out a new pilot. The previous owner included a spare pump for some reason hmmmmm. ...but very handy. Nick, I have had 640 actual forced landings in FW previous to this one and have looked at landing sites cross country on several thousand occasions. ...and a few of those also became forced landings followed by long walks. I am aware that every flight may have this sort of outcome and approach aviation accordingly. The possibility is always on my mind as a part of the deal. Its like I have to wear two jumpers 'cause its cool up there! ..also part of the deal.I note that gyros do in fact have the L/D of a brick yet don't need the same space that our FW buddies do and the art of unpowered landings are different in every aircraft.I believe I have had the most component gyro instruction possible. I intend to write it up... or maybe this is it? If you stir me up again I'll have to do something.[] I have flown with some brilliant instructors, one with over 20,000 hours, and some that were still gaining experience in my several years of FW. Paul is the best I have flown with, most relaxed and makes the whole process of learning very very enjoyable. Its good fun and his continuing culture of safety becomes a part of every experience. Clearly it was useful in my approach to an unfamiliar engine sound.So I might stuff up the next flight but I'm as well prepared as I can be for my level of experience ...and still having fun [8D] Dave

[asra]

Hi Birdy,Thanks for the input, been following a thread on the US forum on this and chatted with an ultralight expert today. Seems if you get a pump 3-5psi its OK in line with the 582's pulse pumps. Parallel seems fine in theory except its another bunch of pipes and fittings -more to go wrong... If a pump hardly ever fails closed (ever heard of it?) maybe series is OK, nice and simple. If they do, then parallel would seem best. I only just got the gyro and its putting on weight already!Dave

[birdy]

640 forced landings[:0]Gees,no wunder you want to fly gyros.[][]

[Ken Watson]

Mine are in series. The hand pumps are a worry if they are before the others because they suck in. I took mine off and just used the pulse and electric, Ken.

[asra]

Ken, If you are commenting on what i posted the electric one doesnt suck through the bubble only the pulse when the elec one is not on, i turn it one just before i take off and turn it back off when i land,the only reason i put it in was if the elec stop the pulse could still suck with out trying to suck through the elec one.Mark

[Ken Watson]

I was just warning about the hand pumps. I thought they were fine but a few people have told me their bladder can suck in especially when they are a bit older and in series. Don't take it as gospel, just a warning. Ken (p.s. i had the hand pump as a 3rd backup but removed it when i heard this and 2 pumps offers enough security, i hope).

[asra]

Ken,I'm being told the same thing, that the hand pumps can die and even fill the lines with particles, if not replaced regularly. My current setup has the hand pump in parallel so that you have to squeeze closed the adjacent line to make the pump work. I'm thinking if you set up in series, turn the electric on for a couple of seconds as you do, that should prime the bowls. Then if it starts on the Pulse pump only, you know the electric was working, then turn the electric back on, fly, land and turn the electric off to taxi to test the pulse pump again. With this series setup and test proceedure maybe ditch the hand pump? Seems the simple way. Given all this, can you let me know what psi your electric runs at? Dave

[asra]

From what you said Dave that sound exactly like the set up that i've now gotMark