Fire Fire Fire

[asra]

Trent you are missing the point.A machine can FEEL stable but can be a hairs breath away from tumbling.The whole flight was a series of throttle adjustments and steering by rudder to keep any resemblance of a straight line,and this from a machine with a very large airfoil shaped HS.It is purely the 10 or so inches offset in TL/COG that made it a dog to fly.There is no way I would have fixed the stick on that particular machine and double no way on a standard RAF.

[asra]

On the other hand I have flown in PB"s "Hybrid" with around 5 Inch offset (from having the gearbox down) and large HS and the difference is like chalk and cheese compared to the RAF.The closer you get to CLT the less you have to actually fly the thing.

[gbw]

"On the other hand I have flown in PB"s "Hybrid" with around 5 Inch offset (from having the gearbox down) and large HS and the difference is like chalk and cheese compared to the RAF.The closer you get to CLT the less you have to actually fly the thing."This would have to be the most telling statement in the CLT discussion. It would be interesting to see similar comments, before and after modifications, by experienced pilots who are not the builder.Graham

[Tsemler]

Perhaps i am missing the point Murray? The machine I flew in didn’t FEEL stable it was stable, turn, set throttle, let go of the stick, use rudder to keep it straight from the thermals, it rode the speed humps and returned to cruise speed. A high thrustline machine tho is hardly a "hairs breath" away from tumbling, IF flown to the conditions of the day and experience of the operator, There needs to be teaching of enough technical theory so the student(s) (green pilots) know the boundary of their machines and flying generally until experience and take over.Really I don’t care anymore about the whole CLT HTL LTL stuff im sick of hearing about it and whatever rules come to fruition will be.

[Greg Mitchell]

Sounds like your a full glass type of guy. :"A high thrustline machine tho is hardly a "hairs breath" away from tumbling,"Given the right set of circumstances and a pilot with little experience, the statement you make above is so wrong it frightens me that some members still believe this. "Really I don’t care anymore about the whole CLT HTL LTL stuff im sick of hearing about it and whatever rules come to fruition will be."You may be sick of hearing about it Trent, though I"m sure there will be ongoing debate, why should the next 20 years be any different from the last 20. It is a shame though that you have not developed a more open and enquiring mind.All the new Generation Gyroplane designers and the original inventer of the autogiro must be completely wrong and have missed the point that you young fella seem to know and understand.........." There needs to be teaching of enough technical theory" What"s the point when there are some that just wont hear it, get it, or act on it.Fly Safe

[bosca]

Greg,You will not convince Trent with your simplistic verbals.

[aussie_paul]

"On the other hand I have flown in PB"s "Hybrid" with around 5 Inch offset (from having the gearbox down) and large HS and the difference is like chalk and cheese compared to the RAF.The closer you get to CLT the less you have to actually fly the thing."This would have to be the most telling statement in the CLT discussion. It would be interesting to see similar comments, before and after modifications, by experienced pilots who are not the builder.GrahamActually Graham, Hybrid was just under 2" HTL.Aussie Paul.

[danny]

g"day Trent, thougth I"d join in and support your thoughts regards the apparently unsupported waffle about thrust lines. You are 100% right in my opinion when you say that some HTL are safe and that training probably is the issue. I flew my machine a ROSCO this arvo 26knots of wind at 5000" and had a ball. The machine is an absolute delight to fly. For some people in ASRA to continue about the frightening flight characteristics of such a machine is for me anyway, absolutely unbelievable. Perhaps the blokes doing most of the talking should fly a ROSCO and then come up with an objective summary rather than a half hearted hypothesis. Flying sideways across the wind at 40knots, flying tight little circles at 4000 rpm and lots of rudder, runs at better than 70knots etc. etc, my machine isn"t a whisker away from pushing over, that"s nonsense. I just don"t get it, my mind is open so please someone explain in objective terms what it is that I don"t seem to get. I don"t suppose that I"m a total dill so just tell me. By the way since my last appearance I found my thrust line and with or without fuel (80litres) the line is at about 4.5" high. Thanks for the help goes to some of the members of the central west god botherers.DANNY CAMEL

[Tsemler]

Well I was never gunna say what I really think on the forum as i know it would seem like im coming over as a w.anker, but i believe that its better to voice my concerns now than when its too late and whinge about it when its too late, Hope fully it might persuade some of the others that just observe the forum to contribute and voice their opinions, there a quite knowledgeable bunch. I know that there are quite a few people out there that aren’t happy about doing the gyro testing… Not because of its hard to do and it takes time, most seem happy to do it, (just so they personally know where their thrustlines are) what they are not happy about is it would seem that in the future it will be used against them to enforce them to change there gyros, some of these guys out there have big hours (trouble free) im talking unreported hours. Some of the guys I’ve heard of aren’t registered and would never see another gyro flying. (I used to reckon they were w.ankers for flying unregistered but can now see there side of the coin and respect it) would they join up if pushed? Some say yeah, some say never while there are too many egos and the wanting of tighter regulations. Perhaps the board needs to reassure people and address their members as to what actual direction they want to take. That way people will feel more at ease in doing the testing. I don’t know perhaps even giving a reassurance that they will not have to change their gyros… Otherwise there maybe a lot less gyro’s registered next year but still out there flying now that would be a serious step backwards for the association.I personally believe that Training and better Technical Education is the solution, As from what I understand the last lot of fatalities that apparently brought all this talk about were not due to unstable designs, some may have been high thrustline but from what I understand they are not a definitive cause of the accidents. I would encourage people that have flown high thrustline gyro’s to air their views to the board in written format so it can be discussed at board level. Im glad you contributed Danny, as I know there are a lot more people out there with your same views. Regards Trent.

[adrian_clince]

gday trent ....i dont entirely disagree with you- they say a HTL is dangerous to fly- among newbies - now for getting a machine- flying it for a few hundred hours -has been a proven flyer- and now they want to "MAKE YOU" change the design? - or though it sounds like the ants pants to make the gyroplane a whole lot "safer"? my question i ask- and i ask this to the people that has have faultless flying years- and are completely happy to the change of such machine- is- at what attitude is the machine going to tumble? as we will never know until we push envolop to far ?? right- and if we dont know - i guess we will never know because the attitude as to which we fly at is already safe?i guess i can say - is "IF THESE machines with a HTL have been at a HARES trigger to say TUMBLE for the last 20 years? WHY hasnt there been more accident ?or DEATHS?i dont entirely disagree that we shouldnt change the design- but if it flies well to one pilot- he should fly! thats my openness adrian

[birdy]

[i]
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[birdy]

at what attitude is the machine going to tumble?There you go Trent, streight up, its eductation thats needed, but eductation aint worth jacks if your mind is shut off.That isnt a stab at you Adrian, just pointn

[GraemeMonro]

Actually Graham, Hybrid was just under 2" HTL.Aussie Paul. Bulls

[Tsemler]

better Technical Education is the solution,Trent [ and all other CLT douters], i dont have "ignorance is bliss, till you realised you were" under every thing i post coz i like the sound of my own thoughts.Birdy Im not a doubter, I wouldn’t bother changing my machine if I was, I very interested in finding out how much of a difference it makes, only then can I say that if CLT is the holy grail.I have it there coz its a fact.I am the same as most, i started [ workn] in a HTL machine, and workn machines cant be picky bout wen they can fly or not.Everythn i fly the "new" ferel in, i flew it in asa HTL machine, so you could say iv been there n dun that, ina HTL machine.As an annalogy, i also rode my first Fink desert race ona pig of a bike,[ XR600]. At the time i thought it was the ducs nuts, best thing ever to carry an engine, couldnt possably be bettered, till ol mate convinced me to mount a KTM600.Chalk n cheese.Same race, same conditions, but an hour quicker, and not one step off. [ steped off the XR 4 times.]You dont know wots best till you tryed the best.Sure i finished the race on the XR, but wot a f^%&n pig compared to the KTM.I only survived the XR outa pure luck, [ you dont step off scooters at 160+ and still be in control], but sooner rather n later, it woulda caught up with me.The KTM, OTOH, wasa pice of pis, and i didnt need luck to survive the step offs, coz there wasnt any.I never “stepped” off my HTL gyro, but there’s nothing to say I still wont “step off” my CLT machine now, Just because it CLT doesn’t make it safe/crash proof either. If I recall there was a CLT machine that came down under a weird set of circumstances a couple years ago altho take that a small grain of salt as possible as I haven’t confirmed if what I heard was true or not.

[aussie_paul]

Bulls
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