Double amputee Solo in RAF 2000

[t-bird]

Hi MarkThe 20 000 hours are accumulated by 46 plus Raf"s. Not by a single individual. Gyro"s have to get a yearly inspection that have to be submitted to Raasa and the Caa after which an ATF Authority to fly is issued. I don"t think the owners will overstate the hours as it will increase the maintenance cost.

[Disco]

It is pretty amazing that assuming t-bird"s figures are right the raf has such different safety history over there than in other parts of the world.

[t-bird]

Hi Disco I think that it could only be training. Here is a video of the side view - looks pretty much standard to me.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e1vZIW40_IwSolo hours are hear say. Total hours are verifyable.

[t-bird]

Murray BakerThese videos are for you no hands on controlshttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=73Bu56KwIHAhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qsd5jVZg1KI

[gyroo]

Hi T-Bird,I do thoroughly enjoy seeing vids of gyro control sticks with zero stick shake - it suggests to me that the owner / operator has spent a great deal of time getting everything "exactly right". Balancing, shimming and all the other tiny adjustments that can be made will generally pay off if done correctly.The number of gyros out there that have moderate to sometimes severe stick shake has always concerned me, but it seems that quite a few people are prepared to accept significant stick shake as "normal". On the other hand there ARE some gyros out there with genuinely almost-zero stick shake in straight and level - and that"s obviously what we should all aspire to.These 2 vids were taken on a brilliant day too, perfect for showing off the hands-and-feet-off-controls. Of course, in comparison to helicopters, most if not all gyros - if set up correctly - should readily fly "hands off", although I don"t condone the practice. 1st and 2nd generation helicopters (Bell 47s and UH-1H, for instance), generally can"t be flown hands-off-cyclic for more than a few seconds, because the cyclic usually tends to slowly "fall over" as well as sometimes starting to oscillate slightly (or both). 3rd generation such as BlackHawks can reportedly be flown "hands off cyclic" for lengthy periods because of the enhanced and improved "artificial feel" designed into the cyclic system and their autopilots and flight directors.Gyros have a significant advantage over most helicopters by having mechanically simple tilting hubs where their pitch and roll pivot hinges are 4 to 6 inches lower than the CofG plane of the rotor, which necessarily will - or should - result in a capability for "hands free" if everything is set up nicely. This is because the gyro is hanging from the rotor teeter bolt and the pitch and roll pivots are 6 to 8 inches lower between the teeter bolt and the CofG of the gyro, so there should be a tendency for these 4 points to basically want to line up if everything is configured correctly: hence - non-augmented "hands off" is possible.Those 2 vids, however, aren"t the slightest bit helpful in any way in relation to any inquiry into, or concerns about, the dynamic behavior of RAFs, or their short and long period pitch response, or response to sudden turbulence, or response to ham-fisted piloting, or response to sudden and significant power changes.I did, however, enjoy watching them. Thanks!Mark R

[t-bird]

Hi MarkAs said before Raf = PIO. I am not trying to convince anyone that it is not.As for calm flying conditions wind was blowing 35 knots in the one video.Here is another video just for funhttp://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQDHH6qdbkw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DMQD HH6qdbkw

[gyroo]

Hi T-Bird,I"m still slightly troubled by the way you are approaching your postings. You, as an experienced pilot, will full well know that "flying into a 35 knot wind" (which in the videos is clearly in a steady state) will result in any powered flying machine sitting as solid as a rock but with a much-reduced ground speed. Obviously, what these guys are doing is they"ve pointed their RAF into the prevailing wind and are enjoying the hover-like illusion that dramatically reduced ground speed gives you. We"ve all done that on days with steady strong winds - its great fun.But I stress again that these enjoyable videos can"t be used to infer that RAFs have satisfactory or acceptable dynamic stability. That"s what I"m finding to be slightly irritating - in this case by having purposely selected these videos it seems you"re trying to infer that RAFs aren"t nearly as bad as some of us on this forum are making out. We are all, of course absolutely entitled to our own opinions. Constructive debate is often a great way of drilling down into the heart of any contentious matter.What Murray and me are talking about is consider the situation where an inexperienced pilot is flying "a stock RAF" in blustery and turbulent conditions, is not manipulating the control stick smoothly, is having trouble with directional control, is applying and reducing throttle rather abruptly, is maneuvering, and is not attuned to the pendular response of the gyro to maneuvering in the blustery conditions. Even I will admit that such an inexperienced pilot in the circumstances described will still - in most cases - eventually land safely but exhausted after having struggled with the machine during a very unpleasant flight. But, very occasionally, an instance will occur where the inexperienced pilot in a RAF will not land safely because a combination of the circumstances listed above will trigger a PIO that exacerbates to PPO and a fatality. If a gyro design has good dynamic stability, which I suggest the RAF has not, then in these same conditions or circumstances the flight will still be very unpleasant but there won"t be an attendant fatality risk.Cheers,Mark R

[Disco]

Maybe tbird"s point is that if great training has been able to get even the dodgy old raf to obtain a great record, imagine what would be obtainable with that sort of training and a stable gyro.

[gyroo]

Yeah, Disco, I agree with what you"ve just said. From what T-Bird has informed us about, namely the extensive and rigorous training and ongoing supervision that South African gyro pilots and gyros are subject to, then one would expect a near zero fatality rate because all the pilots are so clued up that they can pretty well handle anything. 20,000 divide by 46 = an average of 434 hours per South African RAF.Maybe if the US, the UK and Australia had similar rigorous training and supervision regimes, then serious accident rates would similarly shrink.The high-standard-of-training point that T-Bird has been continually emphasizing is very worthy of us all sitting up and taking notice of.This meandering thread has been valuable on that score alone.Mark R

[t-bird]

Hi Mark You said that Murray is talking about

[birdy]

T-bird, the difference between an inherantly stable machine and one that is stabilised by a over trained pilot is, the inherantly stable machine is stable all the time, and is not prone to brain farts, ego, tiredness, poor judgement, bad visability, flyn outside its envolope, itchy balls or anythn else that could distract its attention.Its stable, no matter wut.My 84 modle tojo will drive strate hands off, down an airstrip.But its not stable.One bump, bit of drag one side, blowout or anythn that deviates it from the strate line, and like an RAF, it wont self correct.Hours accumilated mean nuthn without every vairiable Included.I could drive the tojo up n down the strip all day hands off, till i hada blowout.

[Disco]

An interesting test would be if the South African figures were available for other types.

[asra]

Mmmmm, just a couple of things to clear up here.As I previously stated,I have flown a RAF hands off, for half an hour or more.It had the "Stabulator". There is NO WAY I would have done that with the stick solidly fixed.I don"t think anyone would be that silly.As soon as you fix the stick so it can"t move AT ALL, the "Stabulator" becomes redundant.Get RAF South Africa to post a video of that and only then will I be impressed.T-Bird I think the fatality you may be thinking of was the "Newo" gyro that crashed on its delivery run to Caboolture?I was the first responder to that crash site and it wasn"t PPO, it was over controlling in bad weather to the extent of hitting the teeter stops, resulting in the rotor slicing through the cabin at 90* from its normal angle.Like mast bumping in a helicopter,fatal.That"s something that can happen in LTL, CLT or HTL gyro"s and has happened twice since.

[t-bird]

Hi BirdyI absolutely agree with you and I never said it is a stable machine. Maybe you should consider some baby powder before a flight to help with the itch.Murray Baker I am not sure what you mean by your comment on the stick. You previously said that the oscillation was produced by the Raf and not pilot hence me posting the video of them flying hands off.I don"t want to refer to specific accidents but say for instance my accident were similar and the pilot have over controlled. Why whould it happen ?

[birdy]

And about the thread be,n hijacked off ol mates solo, well, you can only blame the thread starter for that.