Tall tail

[johnc]

Sad
..........

[aussie_paul]

Not sure how JC puts his helmet on to fly?That sure helps Graeme!!!Aussie Paul.

[birdy]

Its obvious he dont need no stinkn helmet.

[Disco]

How do instructors teach "hours in the saddle"? Experience can"t be taught. You can only give them the help in their flying up to a certain standard.

[Brian]

How do instructors teach "hours in the saddle"? Experience can"t be taught. You can only give them the help in their flying up to a certain standard.

[WEST OZ FLYER]

Sorry guys I have been busy, Mark you are correct that it is a prototype, hence why Max has changed that the original tail. I have personally seen this aircraft in it"s previous state and I was doubtful of the rudder volume as the Cruiser is a big cabin. This is a pleasant change.Murray, I completely understood that you meant torque roll not p factor. Can you enlighten me to what is a satisfactory anti torque roll device? But, if your interested, ill give my view.You should be able to build and test wotever you like, be it a gyro, mars rocket or bombelt.( this is where most of the genuine ideas come from, and create real progress)But i draw the line wen the gyro, rocket or belt is built for two.The other person, even if they do trust your knowlage are putn their life in your hands, so you better be damn sure you know the facts.I dont givea sh!t bout most laws either, but its the ones left behind that youll have to deal with, and i dout theyd give one bout the law either.Birdy, Inerested? Always. No point being quiet, everyone is entitled to their opinion (good or bad) Couldn"t agree more about your building and testing theory.

[MadMuz]

A gearbox provides some assistance against torque roll/prop effect... where a belt drive with the engine torque and the prop both going the same way tends to make a machine roll more (or direct drive).... whereas a gearbox where the prop turns the opposite direction to the engine, the torque roll is noticeably less...

[asra]

West Oz Flyer,Anti torque.The best solution is the original Cierva design. He had one side of the horizontal stabilizers as an inverted air-foil section, i.e. an upside-down wing.This was largely forgotten until Ron Herron started his Little Wing design. On mine I have adjustable trim tabs. See photo.Some factory builds now have this feature (inverted air-foil) built in,the Aviomania is one and from rumours the Arrow copter will include this down the track.The HS MUST be at least partially in the propwash for them to have any effect at low speed.A HS on the keel is essentially ballast at low speed and provides zero "torque over" protection and for that matter zero Bunt-over" protection on HTL machines.Bunt-over.If you want high thrustline then the horizontal stabilizer must counteract the amount of force applied(by propeller thrust) above the COG at ALL times,not just at 50 or 60 knots.This is the reason most Euro gyros have got it almost right and are mostly fairly stable as far as pitch,large air-foil shaped HS"s in the prop-wash.

[birdy]

Madmuz, reduction setup dont make an ounce of difference, cept during acceleration, wich is minimal.Once your at full noise, theres no torque effect transfered from engine to frame.The torque that creates the torque roll comes from the drag of the rotating prop against the air, and its transfered to the frame THROUGH the engine.

[birdy]

Barker, that dirty great ships sail ofa tall tail will take care of most of the torque roll.Not all of it i know, but itd do a better job of it than them bathtub tails, even without incidence.

[WEST OZ FLYER]

Birdy I can see the logic in what MadMuz is saying. When you rev an engine with the gearbox (car) in neutral the engine rolls on it"s mounts. Let"s say as you rev your gyro engine and the engine rolls on its mounts for example to the left with a RH rotation prop it would give a perceived additional torque roll. However if you were to add or remove a gear PSRU so that the prop spun the opposite direction that perceived torque roll would be cancelled out by the prop. Would be more exaggerated going to or from direct drive as the prop axis would be in line with the crank axis.Barker, that dirty great ships sail ofa tall tail will take care of most of the torque roll.Not all of it i know, but itd do a better job of it than them bathtub tails, even without incidence.That is why I said "some" effect. Could also be argued that rudder deflection (left or right) could be an advantage or disadvantage based on the direction of prop rotation.Murray, the Aviomania looks in photos to have a different AoA on the HS on each side of the rudder? Can"t find a decent photo. Still waiting for the one I know about to turn up so I can look at it in the flesh.If G0023"s

[MadMuz]

Thanks westy, I base what I said on the fact that a mate has an airboat that had a turbo direct drive on it and it would always roll, sometimes even dipping the rear right corner and would torque steer off to the right on acceleration and if backing off to suddenly would go the other way. He now has a C box on it and it is much more well behaved.... still rolls a bit (the other way) but nowhere near as bad as before.... the airboat has an EA81 that came out of a gyro

[asra]

West Oz,The subject of this thread, the "Tall Tail" is about the only good thing(dynamically) on that gyro. My initial reaction when I saw the photo was all that power so high above the COG and nothing to stop it from continually trying to tip over forwards.(Apart from Max"s steady hand,and thats assuming he"s not flying over a nudey beach)The fact that the whole layout is inefficient,HS pushing nose up/engine pushing nose down is immaterial.Placing the HS 4 Inches higher would achieve nothing. Placing it 18 inches higher would achieve lots. Placing a suitably sized

[birdy]

Apart from Max"s steady hand,and thats assuming he"s not flying over a nudey beach That would make for an interestn witness statement. West Oz and MM, ill try again.Torque roll in gyros, the one that kills, has nuthn to do with the roll you experiance wen you rev up the donk.Sure, that torque reaction dose roll the frame, but its only for the very short interval as the spinning bits are gettn faster. Once the rpm has peaked out, no more torque is transfered, coz everythn has reached a steady state of inertia.Wot rolls gyros, or any machine attatched to a prop, while pegged on WOT, is the airodynamic drag of the air on the prop blades.And redrive directions in relation to the crank dont mean jacks at a steady rpm.A helis Tail rotor dose alomst nuthn while the main rotor is at flat pitch.Add pitch to the MR and you need to equally add pitch to the TR to prevent yaw spin.The rpm hasnt changed, but the drag has.

[MadMuz]

I agree Birdy, however, it does depend on how draggy the machine is..... if you have a draggy open frame machine, or a not so slippery canopy (or heavy machine) there will always be prop effect even at full blast or even cruise.... there can still be torque roll countering some of the prop effect, depending on how slow the machine is flying with a lot of power..... not a lot of cancelling mind you, but some. In an aircraft with a slippery canopy and less drag/faster wings where it can cruise fast with low throttle positions once at speed, yes the torque roll will be all but non existant and the prop effect about the same....A story of torque/prop effect being really bad was the harvards.... they couldn"t be flown off a strip with near full throttle because they would just turn.... until a Kiwi farmer got one after the war and needed to get off a shortish farm strip.... so how does a Kiwi farmer