Thrust line off set Questions

[asra]

Howdy all Now that i know a bit more about the center of gravity and how to find it on my Gyro I am wondering about the Thrust line offset.... although I havn't got to doing the double haing test yet I am almost certain that i will have a larger than usual offset.... So my question is this How much offset is safe ?I realise it depends totaly on the configuration of the craft but i am thinking in general, I believe the ORIGINAL Gyro Bee ( if anyone remembers it ) had a thrust line offset of arround 6" and it flew quite well. with few problems if any ever incountered from ever having such a offset.However , if my guess is right I may well be looking at a 12 " thrustline offsetto the CoG ! , due to the way I have tried to make all the weight as LOW as possable for ground stability and the pengulim effect of the tall mast ( 7' 6" if my memory is correct ) thinking that having the weight LOW was a good thing, I lowered the engine a full 6" or 8" and then turned the gear box 180 degrees ( so it is in the up position ) and cept the thrust line exactly where it was originally.... I also moved the seat and tank and just about everything on the craft that was moveable at one time or another , BUT now looking back at it it don't look to me like it was so smart after all ! because I actually increased the Thrustline offset by quite a bit..... I'll know for certain where I stand with the beastie soon as i do the double haing test, perhaps tomarrow ... I have known from the beginning I have a High thrust line machine, and have been keeping that in mind in my flight training .... but High and extreamily High are 2 diferent things How much of an offset is desireable ? how much is too much ? I know the closer to CoM the thrust line the better it is , or so most folk say..... I know I can get the thrust line closer to the Com if need be... but does it need to be ? heheheheh see the problem ? any help is appreaciated thank ya !Bob......" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[birdy]

Rechon I'll stay outa this one.BTW Bob, how cum you ain't ask'n ya yank neibours these questions, they seem to have all the answers???[there are a few over there who know wot they are talk'n bout.]Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.You can always get the answer you want, if you ask enough experts.

[asra]

BobIn England I believe the max allowable offset is + or - 2 inches.This is great as the machine is less effected by use of power.High thrust line machines have been flying safely for many years now and are still safe as long as you fly them within there and more so your capabilities.Its like comparing a car from 1970 to a car from 2005. Both drive and get from A to B. Both do it relitivley safely.If you start speeding, cornering, heavy braking,and driving in the wet, then the old 1970 car can be quite dangerous in the hands of a novice. Were as the novice, may find it quite easy, and still safe in the 2005 car.CLF is similar to the 2005 car, as it is more foregiving in the hands of a novice as the machine is less effected by sudden changes in airspeed, and at high speed.This dosent garrantee safety, as many people are killed in new cars.This is why we must fly within the machines, and our limits.Given all of this, it is still my personnal opinion that a HS is still a basic requirement of all gyro's.Regards Sam.

[NiqueNaque]

Bob,As Llewella says, "play it safe, move the ladder.."if CLT can easily be achieved or within +/- 2" then do it, it can only be in your own best interests, your gyro will fly better and more safely, rather than imposing restrictions on you.Cheers,Nick.

[asra]

thanks guys ! Birdy : I ain't askin my Yank neighbors cuz they are so stuck to the almighty dollar it scares me , seams to me You folks have alot more HORSE sense than the others ...by that I mean practical knowledge ! I've learned more on this site than I have in 3 months on the ones here in the states ! I don't wann'a put my brothers down here but their attitude that you have to buy everything or its not safe, realy gets to me .... but thats another story entirely practical knowledge is better than theory anyday .... I'ed rather take advice from a feller thats been ,there done that than all the doctors and engineers arround ! None of ya answered the question of how much is too much offset .... so I take it its an unknown .... its not written in stone somewhere hehehehehehSami : good anology you wouldn't happen to know if there ever was a 14" offset that flew would ya ? According to my pictures today and all that I have 14" of thrustline offset more than I want, but less than I feared So it'll probly fly fine that way.... IF I Fly it right .... that part I know ! that is why I have been takeing so long teaching myself to fly this thing ! Before ya say it ...I know I should get instructions.... but i can't ... there is no instructors available anywhere near here and I couldn't afford them if I did find one ! if I want to Fly I have to teach myself .....Anyway I'm not trying to start a war about HTL and CTL machines ..... NO realy ! hehehehehe I just need to know is there a point of going too far ? I guess if it does a tumble into the ground thats too far eh ? ..... i was hopeing to avoid that ... its hard on the paint ! I suppose I could buy (or make )a shorter 3 blade prop and turn the gearbox arround that would lop off 3" real fast by lowering the thrustline ....heheheh or take a halksaw to my Warpdrive prop ! .... I can see ya winceing from here ! HAHAHAH ! Relax ! I can handle it ! heheheanyhoo thanks fer the help !and speek up Birdy ! don't be shy ! Bob....I edited my post here cuz i went out and re measured it ... I was wrong it is 14" offset not 10 3/4" like i first posted. been thinking about dropping the keel tube turning arround the gear box, moving the pilot seat and I still dunno.... looks like i need to start from scratch and throw this one away ! Aurgh ! C ya !" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

[birdy]

I'm not shy Bob, but yoyr ask'n for numbers, and I wouldn't know jack sh$t bout numbers.How much is too much??, any hight above the COM.But its phisicaly impossable to get it to pass through the COM....always, but as near as possable is acceptable.A machine with a 4' high TL will fly, but not very well. Centered is perfect but not critical.Only as a guide, the ferel is bout 3" high, and it dosn't have any bad pitching habits and dosn't pitch with power changes, so I gess most would call it acceptable."looks like i need to start from scratch and throw this one away ! Aurgh ! "Thats probably a good idea.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.You can always get the answer you want, if you ask enough experts.

[asra]

birdy .... can you post a side on shot of the ferel is it a standard rosco machine ? if so i'd just like to compare the difference (thrustline)between one with a 912 and my ea81 side on. Mines an older rosco/tim machine, just want to compare how much the ea81 with an E box changes things.Bob K, give us a lookat the 14" clt offset your on about if you wouldn't mind posting a picture.Safe Flying ... ding Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment

[asra]

Bob I guess you have hung and balanced your machine to find its C of G.If so, and your offset is 14 inches, then I personnaly would try and reduce this some what. I have flown G.A, Trikes, and now gyro's, and feel that of all 3 the hardest to learn to fly are gyro's.Knowing what I know now I would never contemplate even trying to teach myself to fly one, and so would recommend you get some training first, even if you have to travel.Disregard the $ as a bent machine will cost you much more, and the risk of serious injury even more again !!!!!!!!!!!!Safe Flying Sam.

[asra]

ding : wish i could give ya a peek..... I can up load pics but they don't show up ... i'll give it another shot just fer the heck of it all Ack Birdy ! ... i was hopeing you'ed say nah don't throw it away yet.... like Daveb ...just be realy carefull....( thank you daveb for the tips ) .... birdy ... I didn't mean it insult ya by callin' ya shy ! hehehehe! sense the TL isn't all that critical i think i'll try to get the offset down as low as i can and call it quits at that ..... Sami I hear ya ! I know i should get instructions honnest ! but a feller gott'a do what a feller's gott'a do ! as i told my Dad " i've bit the dirt at 50mph before on my bike, its not fun, its not even something i wann'a repeat.... but it Shouldn't kill me ....its a calculated risk and knowing my abilities , i'm willing to take that risk ....though I'ed love to lower the odds by getting a few lessons under my belt anyway...;. just no instructors withinn 200 miles .and i can't seam to find any way to attach a pic to show ya .... sorry ....thanks for the help guys !Bob..." Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

Bob Kwhen I learnt to fly Gyro's it took me forever. Even though I've flown GA ... ridden heaps of bikes and like to do things my way, there were traps that I would have fallen into without the proper instruction! Don't deceive yourself!I took 3 years to get trained up properly - only 14 hours twin instruction over that time because I had to go 1000 miles for it and then had to go back for my ground work! Work commitments hampered me but in the long run it was all worth it. You only live once, so it doesn't matter how long or far you have to go to get proper instruction. Take SamL's advise here ... these blokes know what their taking about! They've been there, done that and are still around to tell and teach us!It's not only the flying that you will learn with an instructor. It's all the years of experience he can pass on to you and that in my opinion is invaluable. PLEASE UNDERTAKE INSTRUCTION!Safe Flying ... ding Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment

[asra]

I hear ya Ding ! you folks arn't the only ones that have said that .... even a few hours would be such a great help its silly, although I have surched out all the TRAPS that i can find theres alwayse a possability of missing one , and one is all it takes ! Not only do i like to do things my way ... I DO things my way period ! i make a lousie student, too many years going to college to be tought nothing i guess , eather that or I'm a Hard head ! , anyway.... My Dad has offered to pay for the instructions if i can't afford them, but you know how that is ... hes already done so much ! ... Ok ... I'll look again for an instructor I won't hold my breath , been looking for one for 4 yearsbut there is SUPPOSED to be one in Oregon... somewhere so the PRA fella said .... thats definately closer than Los Angles ! I'll check'em out ... I promice ! C ya !Bob......." Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

Bob if you dont get any training first can you do one thing for us all, and post a picture of your gyro after you wreck it,,, cause you will, and i'll put a carton of **** on it.....Remember -- A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...BUT a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"Mark

[asra]

HEHEH OK Bones ! If I werck it I'll get photos so you can use as an example of what not to do ! ..... thats a deal ! ....c ya !Bob..." Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

Mark,Why aim so low on a certianty, I'll put a pallet of Pee One Double Es on it, Bob, I have lost three friends in Gyro's and I have smashed myself up, and was the one that survived, so much for self learning, having said all this, in my day there was no such thing as an instructor, today, there is No excuse for not getting instruction, and from a qualified instructor, listen and live. all the best Pete BarsdenPete Barsden