Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Teetering limits.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Teetering limits.

    Had a dissagreement with a bloke the other day bout the limitaitons on teetering and when you get there.[?]Usualy i'd just tell him to restudy the concept of teetering coz i recon my understanding is right, but this bloke is sumone i hold in the highest regard coz of his abilities. I know he's very switched on coz i'v had a bit to do with his handywork, and he couldn't do wot he dose without knowlage and understanding of the principals of gyros.I must add tho that the dissagreement we had had nuthn to do with his feild of experties. All the same, his differing understading on this subject has sowen seeds of dout bout my own understanding. My understanding of the reason for the teetering hinge, and how it works you must understand, cums from the logical[ and sumtimes flawed] thinking process of a SGC.[]But heres my understanding.The hinge's main task is to allow the equalising of lift of the two opposing blades when they have different ASs.In a true virtical decent, both blades are seeing the same AS and AOA all round the disc, so theres no need for the hinge coz the lift is equal round the disc.Add some forward movement to the machine/disc and the advancing blade see's higher AS [ blade's rotational speed + forward speed] and the retreating blade see's less AS[ rotational speed - forward speed]. This differential in each blades AS on opposing sides of the disc is going to cause a differential in lift, and try to roll the disc/machine The teetering hinge allows the blade with the higher AS/lift to rise, which allows the other blade, which has less AS/lift to drop. This equalises each blades AOA/lift with no change in the driection of the sum of lift of the two blades, so lift remains parralell to the rotor bearing bolt. [ up IOW]Now, the dissagreement was "when do you reach a point when you run out of teetering". IOW, when will the hub bar start to touch the stoppers[ teetering limit] in S/L flight, if theres inadiquate teetering room?Thinkn logical, like a SCG dose, i recon its at the highest speed.If theres no teetering action in a VD, and teetering increases with increased forward AS, then logicaly the limiters will be touched at the highest speed. Or the VNE of a machine with inadiquate teetering room, is when the bar starts to touch the stoppers.Remember, im only refering to S/L flight.Like i said, im a SCG, and i'v been known to be wrong before.[]Note; i like to know these things coz i recon, till you understand fully the physics and general working of a machine, any machine, then you can't get the maximum performace out of it............. without going past its/ your limits. [}]Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.birdy, here.

  • #2
    In my opinion Birdy, you are partially right. Teetering is at its maximum twice, firstly when getting the blades up and secondly when at maximum speed.When trying to get the blades up, the percentage airspeed (lift) differential between the advancing and retreating blades is at its greatest, and as the disc has very little to stabilize it, teetering is maximum. Where most make a mistake is thinking that the same teetering happens in normal forward flight. Once the blades are up to flying speed gyroscopic forces stabilize the disc and it takes on the properties of a gyroscope. The "blow back" angle of the disc has been spoken about before and it relates to the angle that the rotor disc "blows back" due to the tendency of the advancing blade to apply a lifting force to the disc at the RH side, effecting a gyroscopic reaction, lifting the front of the disc. To stop the gyro from climbing the pilot must use forward stick, and the faster he goes, the more forward stick needed. Depending on the geometry of the head, the pilot will eventually run out of forward stick at somewhere around 90 to 110kts. This is not dangerous because all that happens is that the gyro will climb with full forward stick, limiting further increases in forward speed.The rotors do not actually teeter from side to side but rather the extra forward stick decreases the pitch on the advancing blade and increases the pitch on the retreating blade equalising the lateral teeter. The actual teetering movement is front to rear and the chances of hitting the stops at the rear would be pretty remote given the forward speed of the most gyros today. If you do hit the rear stops, then the tendency would be for the gyro to roll to the left.Tim McClureBroken Hill

    Comment


    • #3
      In my opinion Birdy, you are partially right. Teetering is at its maximum twice, firstly when getting the blades up and secondly when at maximum speed.When trying to get the blades up, the percentage airspeed (lift) differential between the advancing and retreating blades is at its greatest, and as the disc has very little to stabilize it, teetering is maximum. Where most make a mistake is thinking that the same teetering happens in normal forward flight. Once the blades are up to flying speed gyroscopic forces stabilize the disc and it takes on the properties of a gyroscope. The "blow back" angle of the disc has been spoken about before and it relates to the angle that the rotor disc "blows back" due to the tendency of the advancing blade to apply a lifting force to the disc at the RH side, effecting a gyroscopic reaction, lifting the front of the disc. To stop the gyro from climbing the pilot must use forward stick, and the faster he goes, the more forward stick needed. Depending on the geometry of the head, the pilot will eventually run out of forward stick at somewhere around 90 to 110kts. This is not dangerous because all that happens is that the gyro will climb with full forward stick, limiting further increases in forward speed.The rotors do not actually teeter from side to side but rather the extra forward stick decreases the pitch on the advancing blade and increases the pitch on the retreating blade equalising the lateral teeter. The actual teetering movement is front to rear and the chances of hitting the stops at the rear would be pretty remote given the forward speed of the most gyros today. If you do hit the rear stops, then the tendency would be for the gyro to roll to the left.Tim McClureBroken Hill

      Comment


      • #4
        Tim, mate, your as bad as the yanks.All i asked was,"once off the ground[ S/L flight] dose the teetering affect increase as AS increases?"I was only askn bout S/L flyn, i know there are other times when the stoppers can be hammered.And blow back has nuthn to do with it [the question] either.Blow back is only the REACTION from the teeter hinge do'n its job.The blow back can't have any affect on the machine coz its at its greatest point when the blades are fore n aft, and the teeter bolt is left n right, so the blow back force can't be transfered to the machine.You have to stick forward to maintain level flight coz of the increased AS/lift over the disc, not coz of blow back.If blow back was be'n fed back to the machine, we'd all be do'n loops.Just watch the frunt of the disc when your flyn in gusty air. Hit a gust of bout 20mph and you'll see the disc jump. Thats coz of the increased AS differential, which THEN makes the blades hinge more, lifting the frunt of the disc. Yes, youll have to let the offset push the stick forward if you want to stay level, but thats coz of the increased AS/lift, not coz the wind blew the balde back.Same cocky, different feathers................ sort of.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.birdy, here.

        Comment


        • #5
          Tim, mate, your as bad as the yanks.All i asked was,"once off the ground[ S/L flight] dose the teetering affect increase as AS increases?"I was only askn bout S/L flyn, i know there are other times when the stoppers can be hammered.And blow back has nuthn to do with it [the question] either.Blow back is only the REACTION from the teeter hinge do'n its job.The blow back can't have any affect on the machine coz its at its greatest point when the blades are fore n aft, and the teeter bolt is left n right, so the blow back force can't be transfered to the machine.You have to stick forward to maintain level flight coz of the increased AS/lift over the disc, not coz of blow back.If blow back was be'n fed back to the machine, we'd all be do'n loops.Just watch the frunt of the disc when your flyn in gusty air. Hit a gust of bout 20mph and you'll see the disc jump. Thats coz of the increased AS differential, which THEN makes the blades hinge more, lifting the frunt of the disc. Yes, youll have to let the offset push the stick forward if you want to stay level, but thats coz of the increased AS/lift, not coz the wind blew the balde back.Same cocky, different feathers................ sort of.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.birdy, here.

          Comment


          • #6
            The blow back can't have any affect on the machine coz its at its greatest point when the blades are fore n aft, and the teeter bolt is left n right, so the blow back force can't be transfered to the machine.Birdy....in this position ...fore and aft blades...the only way the front blade can be higher than the rear is if the blades are teetering in the towers...so big enough gust and blowback with full forward stick and maybe you might hit the rear teeter stop...about 9 degrees i think

            Comment


            • #7
              The blow back can't have any affect on the machine coz its at its greatest point when the blades are fore n aft, and the teeter bolt is left n right, so the blow back force can't be transfered to the machine.Birdy....in this position ...fore and aft blades...the only way the front blade can be higher than the rear is if the blades are teetering in the towers...so big enough gust and blowback with full forward stick and maybe you might hit the rear teeter stop...about 9 degrees i think

              Comment


              • #8
                Gidday Mark and Birdy. The blow back force happens when the blades are across the machine (teeter bolt fore and aft) and the resultant reaction is at 90* - the disc lifts at the front.Blow back in normal flight is only a few degrees and is easily compensated for by the pilot with forward stick - the pilot doesn't even know he is doing it.Tim McClureBroken Hill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Gidday Mark and Birdy. The blow back force happens when the blades are across the machine (teeter bolt fore and aft) and the resultant reaction is at 90* - the disc lifts at the front.Blow back in normal flight is only a few degrees and is easily compensated for by the pilot with forward stick - the pilot doesn't even know he is doing it.Tim McClureBroken Hill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Birdy said,"Now, the dissagreement was "when do you reach a point when you run out of teetering". IOW, when will the hub bar start to touch the stoppers[ teetering limit] in S/L flight, if theres inadiquate teetering room?Thinkn logical, like a SCG dose, i recon its at the highest speed.If theres no teetering action in a VD, and teetering increases with increased forward AS, then logicaly the limiters will be touched at the highest speed. Or the VNE of a machine with inadiquate teetering room, is when the bar starts to touch the stoppers.Remember, im only refering to S/L flight."Birdy. In one word, "exactly". No need to make a mountain out of a mole hill!!![:0]Aussie Paul.[]www.firebirdgyros.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Birdy said,"Now, the dissagreement was "when do you reach a point when you run out of teetering". IOW, when will the hub bar start to touch the stoppers[ teetering limit] in S/L flight, if theres inadiquate teetering room?Thinkn logical, like a SCG dose, i recon its at the highest speed.If theres no teetering action in a VD, and teetering increases with increased forward AS, then logicaly the limiters will be touched at the highest speed. Or the VNE of a machine with inadiquate teetering room, is when the bar starts to touch the stoppers.Remember, im only refering to S/L flight."Birdy. In one word, "exactly". No need to make a mountain out of a mole hill!!![:0]Aussie Paul.[]www.firebirdgyros.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hello Gentshas anyone ever seen a gyro do a vertical decent in still air? and also does the lack of continued reply mean that this subject is now exhausted?I could be thick or just a bit tired but just what was it that Birdy's mate was proposing? I can see what birdy is saying about forward speed and I can see what Tim is saying about blowback but I cant see what the alternate way of hitting the teeter stops is.Nice to see you all "exactly" legal again Paul.cheersAJGyro Gearloose

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hello Gentshas anyone ever seen a gyro do a vertical decent in still air? and also does the lack of continued reply mean that this subject is now exhausted?I could be thick or just a bit tired but just what was it that Birdy's mate was proposing? I can see what birdy is saying about forward speed and I can see what Tim is saying about blowback but I cant see what the alternate way of hitting the teeter stops is.Nice to see you all "exactly" legal again Paul.cheersAJGyro Gearloose

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            yes i would like to know too. i have gone up from 26ft fabricated goodwin to his 27ft extruded ones. great for summer and crusing but heavy and rough when moving it around down low. also can you refresh me as to what IOW and SCG mean again

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "also can you refresh me as to what IOW and SCG mean again"Tonydenton,This is the only place I can enter this discussion. In Other Words I am simpler than a Simple Cow GrowerGraham

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X