Flat spins

[tonydenton]

thanks birdy, and yes your right, also I clearly hadn"t been taught that either. [my bucket list is getting bigger] I had read on the forum over the years what if: an engine died abruaptly on take off and the following yaw, that was also new, but as chopper had said a great post and really seems to be getting somewhere.

[Justin]

Tony you need to concentrate on flying straight and level before you start getting into

[gyroo]

Hi Justin and all,I"m interpreting your post as meaning a low time pilot should fly conservatively and concentrate on straight and level and amass lots of hours perhaps in circuits and straightforward cross country before starting to "explore the envelope". That"s a commendable aspiration but our accident statistics going back more than 25 years suggest that people start "exploring the envelope" pretty rapidly when they are out from under the yoke of direct supervision of their instructor.People frequently come to grief in situations like Birdy has described - (1) getting behind the power curve when low although not realizing it; (2) sensing an unexpected descent; (3) applying power and wondering why the gyro isn"t responding; and, (4) the resulting desperate struggle to avoid terrain while trying to "carefully milk" an extra knot of two with the engine at what Birdy calls "full noise" but not gaining height and having to simultaneously avoid treetops. Many of the old timers tell (now) amusing stories of harrowing experiences of travelling quite long distances at about 25 -30 knots at 30 feet sweating on and waiting for airspeed to creep up 31 - 32 - 33 before the gyro starts to gain height. Anybody who"s flown a low-powered gyro with full fuel in hot weather and after a big meal - when pressed - will confess to having experienced something like that. Many of those stories arise from takeoff experiences, especially where people have stupidly pulled their gyro up off the runway prematurely and straight into a nose-up behind-the-power-curve situation (you can accept this bit as a confession from me).The statistics, however, also seem to show that a lot of people come to grief after - using fixed wing circuit terminology - either the base turn or the turn to final. Failure to adequately monitor airspeed seems a common theme, and the getting behind the power curve in that situation can be really insidious, because the keel angle of the gyro will be level or flat and nothing like the nose-up attitude seen when a gyro is pulled into the air prematurely on takeoff. So, what happens is that a gyro that is in a level attitude with a pilot concentrating more on the place the land than airspeed lets airspeed bleed off and the descent rate increases markedly. The gyro will now be behind the power curve because airflow is entering the disk at a relatively steep angle from below front. If airspeed is very low, even full power probably won"t result in an increase in airspeed, although it probably will arrest the rate of descent, and the grim and harrowing low-speed mushing and now nose-up struggle I described earlier then begins.I"ve obviously drifted "off theme" a bit because my examination of the accident stats doesn"t reveal that anyone simply planning to land has found themselves in a vertical descent or a flat spin, but the stats are brimming full of behind the power curve situations that have resulted in gyros clipping vegetation or fences and being totalled. Flat spin accidents in the stats only occur where people have intentionally entered a flat spin and then find they can"t get out of it before hitting the ground.The moral of my contribution this morning is that I believe that anyone who is allowed to solo in a gyro MUST have been taught or told - and demonstrate understanding - at a very early time about potentially hazardous situations such as behind-the-power-curve on approach, and VDs, and so forth. I am not comfortable with in-depth treatment of these sorts of topics occurring at a more "advanced" stage of training, because history shows that once people are away from the scrutiny of their instructor they"ll just about try anything in their gyros, and anyway when is this "advanced" stage of training supposed to happen?Mark ReganMelbourne

[t-bird]

Hi MarkCan you please explain how you have come to such a conclusion that “The statistics, however, also seem to show that a lot of people come to grief after - using fixed wing circuit terminology - either the base turn or the turn to final.” A pilot not capable of flying a circuit and communicating should NOT be solo never mind doing Vd’s and spins.First of all it is aviation terminology not fixed wing, thus applicable to everyone in the air.We are required by CAAP 166-1(2) Operations in the vicinity of non-controlled aerodromes to advice other aircraft of our position and intentions.Here is the link and some interesting paragraphshttp://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/166-1.pdf4.5.4 As helicopter and gyroplane operations can be varied and flexible, pilots need to ensure that they monitor and advise other aircraft of their position and intentions by radio where applicable.7.2.1 Effective radio communication requires the pilot use standard aviation phraseology as detailed in the CASA Flight Radiotelephone Operator Licence Syllabus of Training and in the AIP. Positional and other broadcasts necessary to minimise traffic conflict should be made, for example: ‘joining circuit’, ‘turning base’ and ‘clear of all runways’. Effective communication and increased traffic awareness will help prevent a collision or an Airprox event.

[gyroo]

Hi T-Bird,I was simply using the expression "base" and "final" to describe the phase of gyro flight where if one reads all the sad obituaries and accident reports on the Gyro News DVD that goes back well into the 1980"s it seems apparent that when people shift their focus from flying the gyro over to selecting and concentrating on the spot on the ground that they are intending to land on, there seems to be a pattern of people not adequately monitoring their airspeed. Maneuvering, such as in turns at relatively low level, is also where people involved in accidents also appear to let airspeed erode.I"m not so much talking about formal circuit operations at licensed aerodromes, I"m simply taking about the process of descent and turning to line up for any spot on the ground, such as a paddock or a clearing or a track on private property.In my days in helicopters we seldom flew formal circuits, even at licensed aerodromes, usually zipping in from the dead side to reduce wasted time-and-money instead.Cheers,Mark Regan

[t-bird]

Hi MarkA circuit pattern for a road and paddock will help the pilot identify dangers and reduce the work load aiding new pilots.

[gyroo]

A proficient gyro pilot should be able to fly without looking at his airspeed. Well T-Bird, this is where I say: "You just cannot be serious with that last sentence about flying without looking at airspeed". What planet are you coming from?Obviously an open frame pilot has the wind blast as a guide, and a podded gyro will still be exposing the pilot to wind blast, but I"m not very good at mentally interpreting wind blast into relative airspeed. And, I"ll NEVER support the notion that a "proficient gyro pilot" doesn"t need to keep a regular eye on the ASI. In my opinion it"s precisely that "don"t need to scan the ASI" attitude that causes accidents in the downwind turn situation, and will also lead to behind-the-power-curve situations.When a few knots can mean the difference between a gyro accelerating and climbing, or not climbing and not accelerating, I"ll choose the ASI every time.Mark R

[t-bird]

Mark we are flying gyro"s not helicopters. I am serious. Any instructor should be able to fly a circuit without airspeed indictor.An advance flying course should include flying with an inop sticker over airspeed.People get behind the power curve by flying the Asi. They give inputs to the gyro and waiting for the ASI with a delay of its own to react upon it. You are behind the gyro if you fly like this get some HEIGHT.You are only proficient if you know what you have done is going to get you behind the power curve and you react before the Asi.Inop Asi is part of bathtub training in other continents.

[birdy]

Duno if this means anything, but the only time I ever look at the ASI is after I feel a sudden drop in AS.( but this is only out of curiosity)I don"t use hight, Usualy never have much AS, and am never lookn where I"m go,n never mind at the ASI.Gess ill just never be proficient.

[gyroo]

OK T-Bird and Birdy,I get both of your points. I actually don"t think we are actually too far apart because the general thrust of my concerns are dealing with airspeed ranges where things are getting really marginal. I completely agree that you don"t need to look at the ASI too much if you are completely familiar with the intricacies of your machine, and that it"ll fly off when it wants to rather than "by the numbers", and it"ll largely cruise where it wants to, and again not "by the numbers", and it"ll descend at a comfortable rate, again not necessarily "by the numbers".Given that these forum entries are read by anyone and everyone, and my reaction in the previous post about questioning t-bird"s statement about not needing to look at the ASI was simply done out of concern that there are some situations when looking at the ASI might become very handy indeed, to inform the pilot whether he or she is drifting into speed ranges where performance, even at full power or "full noise" as Birdy calls it, will become marginal.Our accident and incident summaries are replete with situations where people have been caught behind the power curve low down, so you"ll probably appreciate that I am saying that if all those people had been more attentive to airspeed in the firstplace, then possibly many of those incidents and accidents could have been avoided. Regards to all,Mark R

[IanM]

Hi Guys,I would never advice people to fly any aircraft without a ASI but quite early in training a person I will cover the ASI to make them look outside the aircraft and not fixate on the ASI.

[Brian]

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[tonydenton]

hello mark and thank you for your post 47. very well written and I enjoyed reading it as you had explained everything well. . I should point out that I was in the wrong to say sinks and flat spins was " advanced training" obviously to me I thought that it was but as I had said earlier I never thought the 2 had any chance of being associated on take off. until this topic. so I"m learning , and I like that.

[Brian]

I support any training aids that help to explain a scenario to a student, after all ,thats what its all about !!An open frame gyro has many advantages over a pod....except when its wet or a layer of ice on the ground ! . Doesnt matter what sort of trousers you were, you finish up getting throughly wet in the crutch area

[MadMuz]

A good asi in an open frame gyro is as follows:If the flys and moths are buzzing around your visor...... you are going too slowIf the bugs are splattering on your visor and remaining identifiable, you probably doing about 20 or soIf the bugs are splattering all over your visor and you cant tell a moth from a fly..... that"s about rightIf the bugs are smashing thru the visor and getting stuck in your teeth and eyeballs.... prolly better to slow down a bit