Flat spins

[t-bird]

Hi MarkNo bathtub science involved.Have a look at any gyro with a conventional tail , the rudder will be offset when the pedals are neutral.By slowing the gyro down with a bit of power for a Vd will neutralise this effect.By cutting the power before zero airspeed will result in some airflow over the rudder and your gyro will start to spin to the right.(This will be to the left for non Rotax engines)Your airspeed will reduce to zero after 90 degrees of the spin and you will now be an in a Vd without rudder authority spinning clockwise.

[birdy]

Well Birdy, I don"t even think Ray Prouty would have ever been in a gyro, let alone owned or flown oneSpeaks volumes don"t it. I"v spent time in gyros, but I"m not going to get into reasons why unicycles ain"t the main mode of transport.Btw, the level of ones respect is in direct correlation to the level of ignorance of the respectees.

[birdy]

By cutting the power before zero airspeed will result in some airflow over the rudder and your gyro will start to spin to the right.(This will be to the left for non Rotax engines)Your airspeed will reduce to zero after 90 degrees of the spin and you will now be an in a Vd without rudder authority spinning clockwise.Without sum horizontal component to the airflow, your rudder is usless.If there"s enuf, as you point out in the first line, for the offset to start a yaw happening, then there"s enuf for a rudder correction.But once your rudder is ineffective, so is your vertical fin, so it"s not the offset that"s creating the spin, it"s the left side downward swing of the prop in riseing airflow that"s causing an offset in thrust.

[t-bird]

Thanks Birdy.I have always just use stick forward, if you say stick sideways do you push it in the direction of the spin?

[tonydenton]

I can actually understand instructors not wanting to teach sinks, flat spins and especially slides. but I couldn"t help thinking at the recent nationals and during one of Adrians work shops, he has a " little wooden gyro " which I believe has also seen court appearances. now if instructors had a similar unit, the leeson could be at ground level and a bit more explainatory with "WHAT NOT TO DO" and also " WHY NOT TO DO IT " and " IF YOU HAVE DONE IT, HOW TO GET OUT OF IT ". it all becomes easier "HANDS ON AND EVERY ONE ON THE GROUND". what about that idea. would of saved me some money and a fair chance ,more importantly, could of saved some lives...... low cost little tool for everyone.

[mad max]

Yes Tony, I"ve had a mechano gyro which was given to me 15 yrs. ago. I call it the ground trainer. A little retarded kid broke it in half a yr. ago and it now has a new paint job and C of A - A great idea.

[Brian]

I can actually understand instructors not wanting to teach sinks, flat spins and especially slides. but I couldn"t help thinking at the recent nationals and during one of Adrians work shops, he has a " little wooden gyro " which I believe has also seen court appearances. now if instructors had a similar unit, the leeson could be at ground level and a bit more explainatory with "WHAT NOT TO DO" and also " WHY NOT TO DO IT " and " IF YOU HAVE DONE IT, HOW TO GET OUT OF IT ". it all becomes easier "HANDS ON AND EVERY ONE ON THE GROUND". what about that idea. would of saved me some money and a fair chance ,more importantly, could of saved some lives...... low cost little tool for everyone.

[birdy]

Thanks Birdy.I have always just use stick forward, if you say stick sideways do you push it in the direction of the spin?Hang on, you never mentioned anything bout spins, you just said " recovery from a VD with no rudder authority"Perfect example of why I"m hesitant of do,n this **** on the internet.A spin changes everything.How high are you?Why is it spin,n?Intentional or not?You sure you ain"t sliden backwards?Wot sorta machine you sitn in?Coupla things to ponder;Not many gyros can do a perfect VD.And it"s not very often you have 0 rudder authority.Firstly, a perfect VD is a perfectly flat disc.Unless you have no HS, and no prop thrust, your never going to have a perfectly flat disc.The HS will be tryn to push the nose down, even tho it"s stalled.And even the slightest thrust from an idling prop will mean you"ll need sum degree of back stick to keep it ina perfect vertical.And how do you know your stick is perfectly centered laterally?The slightest side drift will mean your not descending virticaly.Then there is the airflow over the rudder.If you happen to be flyn a stabless gyro, and have killed the engine, and are in a perfect VD, then your machine will be hangn at the same angle as it did wen you checked the dangle angle, say 9* nose down.If your rudder hinge is, as is normal, vertical to the keel line, then it also is leaning forward 9*. Seen as most people fly with dunny door sized HS, the nose will be further down, giveing the rudder even more of a forward lean.ANY degree of forward lean of the rudder hinge is going to give it authority, coz the airflow over it ain"t parallel.The only way to get the airflow perfectly parallel to the hinge line of the rudder is to apply a power to hold the nose up, then compensate exactly with back stick to arrest any horizontal movement.And now you have prop blast over the rudder. As you can see, it"s nearly impossible to have an ineffective rudder, and keep it at that exact angle for any period of time.So if your spin,n, don"t blame the rudder.Time went back to me moos.

[t-bird]

Hi BirdyTopic is flat spinsHow high are you? 1500 Agl after Hasell checksWhy is it spin,n?Intentional or not? Always intentionalYou sure you ain"t sliden backwards? SureWot sorta machine you sitn in? Bathtub , Turnkey or the latest Dunny doorWas taught to always keep cabin upright. Reason for me asking about stick to the side.

[birdy]

Hi BirdyWas taught to always keep cabin upright. Reason for me asking about stick to the side.Bloodyell, your way over my leeg, I never been to 1500". ( and Wots a Hasell?)Keepn it spinny thing on top is a good start.You

[t-bird]

Hi BirdyNot over you leeg , out of it that is why I need more height to keep it safe.Hasell checks is an acronym from fixed wings.Height - are you high enough for planned maneuverAirframe - Is everything still attached throttle not hanging by a cable and duck tape holding cracked joysticks together still serviceable. Safety - Hatches harnesses and rifles fast an secureEngine - instruments all goood and Subaru not missing too muchLocation - You are not over water, buildup or tiger country - you have a place to land.Lookout - Do a 360 turn to confirm no other aircraft. So yeah over cautious, but way not in a recreational environment.

[Brian]

Cautious is good t bird & height is your friend

[tonydenton]

hello chopper, how long before it was agreed that sinks and flat spins should be taught and then how much longer before all the instructers actually do teach them could be a ways off I think. I was more suggesting for the training tool of a little gyro model and on the ground. you could ask for a show of hands from instructers who else uses that type of training aide. max does or did, Adrian do you ? how many more .[ my instructor never taught the manuveres, told me he never.] I just see the problem being helped a small bit with a training aide. I for one can"t get my head around the intellect [ big words from mark Reagan ] "that is typical day job language" and as much as I have learnt from birdys sermons. I still lose it from the spelling/slang. it"s all good fun when it"s funny, but on the technical stuff it doesn"t get in like I want. [ believe me I want it, I have learnt on this forum ] and I know as soon as I saw adrians little "wooden toy" I knew that would help me and I"m sure others. it"s just about helping in the interim.

[gyroo]

YES!I completely agree with Tony Denton that a wooden model gyro about 10 inches long would be absolutely invaluable as a simple training aid. Way back in the last century I spent a lot of time in RAAF Operations Rooms and model planes on sticks and model choppers were routinely used for individual or massed briefings.Although I"m not an Instructor, and therefore I shouldn"t really tread into areas of Training concern, but if I may be allowed to express a personal opinion - my view is that I would expect every ASRA Instructor to have such training aids in their box of tricks.Mark Regan, Melbourne

[birdy]

With respect Mark, not much good a training aid model, if the understanding ain"t there to begin with.I was always of the understanding that FW instructors had to not just demo stalls n spins, but the student had to do it, and live.IOW, the instructor had to know, and be capable.Behind the curve, VDs and spins should be the same ina gyro.Backslides probably not so common, but coz it"s not far from a VD to a backslide, it should at least be understood, and the hazards explained.