interesting discovery, well new to me !

[asra]

Obviously Tim ! Brian , I have read and re-red the benson flight manual and practly havr it memorized ... Knowing How it is supposed to REACT is not the problem ! the problem is the gyro is not reacting how it is supposed to react..... even though as far as i can tell it is set up to exact spects.... to me that is ilogical ...it doesn't make sense at allI was just hopeing one of you might know where to check or have ran into this problem before ... the Benson manual and all the forems do not mention anything about it eather.... so I guess I am going where no man has gone before ! thanks anyway.... Brian If you feel that your beating your head against the wall, then why post ? I am long sense tired of hearing the best you can sujest is get qualified instructionsi do think I have hurd that more than one time . though ya can't Damm an man for trying , there comes a point where telling him over and over again is useless... I'ed think that you would have realised that by now ... I have hurd your "Sujestions" thank you , but I chose not to follow your sujestions at this time, ok ? its that simple, and untill I change my mind that is how it will be , telling me over and over is not going to change my mind , i am not wishy,washy or un desided in this at all.i have made up my mind to teach myself to fly the gyro and thats that... hard headded in your view point , surely, even stupid by your view point , indeed .but its my desigon, and no one elses... and that is how it will stand . I am not opposed to learning more about my gyro however, as I do not know all there is to know about the gyro or their behavior, unlike som people think they do I do not and i freely admit that point. learning is the key... and that is why i put up with you people looking down your noses at me , havn't you ever wonderied why I am still at it ? Perhaps your views need to be modified a bit to accomidate some people ? is that so extreamily dificult to do for you folks ? some times I wonder ! c ya !bob........" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

Gentlemen,To repeat myself again......of all countries with strong litigation laws, America is one of the worst, and all your writings and suggesting of how to help Bob Kelly get into the air safely could come back to bite you should he demise whilst following your instructions/suggestions, remember he can download all that is written.Bob Kelly, WE are not the problem.................................you are.Pete Barsden

[mrford61]

quote:Originally posted by Bob K. Perhaps your views need to be modified a bit to accomidate some people ? is that so extreamily dificult to do for you folks ? Come on Bob, you are asking people to patronise you? You arent asking people to tell you what you need to know, you are asking people to confirm your supposed "discoveries" and when they cant you get the ****s with them.I for one think you will get there Bob, and in a way admire your dogged determination. When you do come to terms with how little you understand about what you are trying to do I hope you have the grace to apologise for your ignorance and the petulance displayed to those that have tried to give you good advice.

[asra]

in whos eyes Pete ? Your Fear of litigation is well founded in this day and age. Unfortionately !I would never try to sue someone that tried to help thats obserd ! even though you might , I would never do such a thing ! Its nice to see that you think you speak for the entire flying comunity ! you must think very highly of yourself ! Differing opinions is what makes the world go arround Pete get used to it !Bob......" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

Mrford61: No I'm not asking for people to patronise me ! I am saying that your putting people all in the same box it totally Wrong ! I Know I understand Little about flying, I have admitted that, if my comments to those of good advice seams wrong please forgive me ! but I won't be Shi- on eatherjust because you think you are right and I am stupid is no excuse ! Didn't your momm'a teach ya manners ? You've all said in one way or another I am a fool.... and I have tried to be nice and not do the same back to you and failed many times ! I have the right to protect myself .... and the ability to call you anything I feel like , but I havn't, not because I am afraide of you but because I am trying to be civil . There has been a few people that have tried to help me understand more about this gyro thing, but more often there are rude off handed remarks , Do you MrFord61 think I should just lay back and let people poop all over me in the NAME of good advice ? show me one posting that didn't come with a "your stupid "conotation ! and you guys have the nerve to say I'm the problem because I don't wann'a play ball the way you do ? is there anyone out there that wonders Why I don't wann'a play ball the way You guys do ???? You fella's are supposed to be the smart ones in our socioty..... I don't clame that title and doubt I ever will.... start acting like it in Life and in avation, your "i'm so much better than you approach is sickening" Aussie paul is the only one not condesending and even he says there is only one way ! .... you still don't get it do ya ? Oh well, I tried !C ya !Bob........... ...." Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[mrford61]

Bob I dont expect you to take crap from anyone.Tim, Brian and Paul have given good advice and after a second look there are no "your stupid" conotations so dont put "everyone in the same box"I agree some of the bedside manner you have copped is harsh and dont blame you getting your hackles up but you dont seem to want to listen to anyone unless they molly coddle your uninformed view.I am nowhere near "gyrosmart" enough to give you advice on getting yourself in the air but if I were I would give it a go if that is how you are determined to do it. Bob I am saying this with the best manners that I can type I believe you when you say you have read and re-read the Benson manual but believe me you havent grasped it yet. You will, and when you do only then you will understand how far off the mark you are at this point. Talk to more people and clarify what you are reading and get the advice you need. I suggest one on one over the phone if you can, people are less confrontational talking than typing and you wont have to be so defensive.

[asra]

Ok Good point MrFord61:even though the very first post starts with " I hope i don't regret this advice later..."Nique Naque's post is of the same type and so on .... I admit I too have a tennancy to Put everyone in the same box when I'm being jumped on ! good point ! I shall try not to ! You missunderstand me completely ! I do NOT want to be Molly coddeled or what ever , I do Not want to be told I'm an idiot for not takeing lessons , I want information , not some song and dance about how a gyro can kill you, think of your wife ,how she will feel and all that crap ! this is a gyro forem I am here for gyro information if i wanted flying tech. I'ed go to that forem. ... instead I get "Bob you know so little I can't begin to teach you anything " and you say thats not condesending ? I said before I know full well how a gyro is supposed to work... AND I DO.... For gods sake I build the gyro from a pile of scrap I better ! However, my gyro isn't behaveing like it SHOULD, and I want to know why this is ... flying has nothing to do with it because it hasn't flown yet I suppose it could be because because of the person in the pilots seat and no doubt that has something to do with it , but i seriously doubt that is all, and unless you have been hideing in the bushes watching me practice I can't possably see how you could automatically suspect me as being the problem and not the craft ! .... however, there is some logic to that thought.... if the machine is set up correctly, then it will fly properly , the only thing keeping it on the ground is the pilot ! .......... Mark You say I havn't grasped the benson manual yet.... in what way do you mean ? perhaps I am missing something here because I thought it was to teach you how to fly a benson type gyro . I have done every step up to the crow hopping numerous times and got into crow hopping a bit but no where near enough.I have a long way to go yet .... then i found I couldn't get the gyro off the ground on demand... that puzzled me ! then I got looking at the photos I had taken and all but the one just before the last crash had the rotors way too high..... I am no dunce and i hate to be treeted as one, I know I sound like one (to my shrigrin), but thats the way it goes I guess... I am looking for the answer to the question,.... why is the rotors to high ? and it seams no one realy knows.... or they would have said something by now........I know and so do many of you know, that the rotor can be high for many reasons, PILOT error , stick out of adjustment.... i.e. not centered between the head stops when the pilot centers the stick., the tilt angle being to great between nose wheel and tail wheel, though this would be a small amount and SHOULD be inconificant...... Knowing this , I see No reason for the rotor to be 10 to 15 degrees higher than normal , yet that is what I have.... that is why I spent all last summer trying to ballance it on the tail wheel and could not get it to ballance, I could get it very close but that is not ballanced ! so I have failed in that respect...... so thats where I am. if that helps to clarify,... I was thinking off the top of my hat at the beginning of this post, Looking for answers trying to think of reasons that the rotor would be so high, when I know full well the gyro is set up properly.... .... if its set up properly it shouldn't do what its doing... but it does so where am I ? there isn't a single post here that says check the funtion of the rotor's front to back tilting angle.... everyone got stuck on the stick controls the angle... but Guys ... they gyro shouldn't lift off the ground with the stick full foward ! that is what it did ! so obviously its about 10 degrees or so off ! full foward the rotor is supposed to be level with the ground.... there should be only a little lift, not enough to lift the craft from the ground ! but if its 10 degrees off as I suspect, that is enough AOA to lift off at full foward, and give me too high a rotor angle when the stick is centered. so ... thats what I think .... Sorry for the BS guys its not my intention to get on here and start a spat every time I post .... NO REALY ! c ya !Bob......" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[mrford61]

Bob I suspect Brians comment that he hopes he doesnt regret his advice is a genuine concern of giving you enough info to hurt yourself and not a putdown of your smarts.Nick likes jerking peoples chain and has found a medium where it is reasonably safe to. But in his "bull in a china shop" way he tries to be helpful.I have not read the Bensen manual but even a hack like me can see you havent grasped how to get your craft off the ground.From my understanding it wouldnt matter how far yor nosewheel can come up. Even if there was 24 inches of space to rock back to the tail wheel.It is to do with how far you allow it to come up. There is no need to touch the ground with the tail wheel in the takeoff process, in fact all it will do is slow you down. But set your machine up so the " tailwheel to ground clearence" is whatever its supposed to be. 6 inches??? I dont know, I dont think its an excact science. Now providing the rotorhead is properly made by someone who knows what they are doing, if your gyro is sitting on a level surface on the mains and nosewheel, and the torque tube is parralell to the keel and the ground with the stick full forward then it should be ok. When I say ok I mean in your fore/aft scenario you are having trouble grasping.I am not that good at explaining what I mean Bob but basicly if the rotor disc had the capacity to tilt back to vertical and you had 2 feet of travel from your tail wheel to the ground it would only be a problem if you let it. It sounds like you are looking for a fault with your machine that isnt there. If you can get the nosewheel to come up and have enough stick movement to get it back on the ground you should be able to "balance" on the mains. And if everything else with the gyro is right , power, rotor size, prop, and more then the gyro should fly.MC

[asra]

Bob said among other things, Mark You say I havn't grasped the benson manual yet.... in what way do you mean ? perhaps I am missing something here because I thought it was to teach you how to fly a benson type gyro . I have done every step up to the crow hopping numerous times and got into crow hopping a bit but no where near enough.I have a long way to go yet .... then i found I couldn't get the gyro off the ground on demand... that puzzled me ! then I got looking at the photos I had taken and all but the one just before the last crash had the rotors way too high..... I am no dunce and i hate to be treeted as one, I know I sound like one (to my shrigrin), but thats the way it goes I guess... I am looking for the answer to the question,.... why is the rotors to high ? and it seams no one realy knows.... or they would have said something by now...Bob, re following the Bensen manual. You have not told me how it flew as a gyro glider.[]I told you that it is almost impossible for your machine to fly without an extremely experienced pilot, due to lack of HP, lack of efficient prop, lack of efficient rotors, density altitude and the weight of a solidly built guy like yourself.The rotor AoA will be too high because of all the things mentioned above. The time you got off the ground and crashed was due to you accidentally getting enough airspeed and rotor rpm to have it horse off the ground only to sink back down all crossed up and roll over.A lot of us have seen this happen before.I have done my best from day one privately and on the forum to help, and I guess I have let a couple of low shots slip. My apologies.Now if you want to fly your gyro, please listen to what I have to say.SET your gyro up as a gyro glider and follow the Bensen Manual You can leave the engine on without the prop as a gyro glider.Your gyro will fly quite well as a gyro glider and you will have months of enjoyable flying, and you will learn the skills that you will need when transitioning to your gyro as a powered machine. At the moment you do not have the skills required to fly a gyro with a lack of HP, lack of efficient prop, lack of efficient rotors, density altitude and the weight of a solidly built guy like yourself working against it.Because the car will provide the entire HP you need you will be able to be successful. It is all up to you. The BLOODY Bensen manual Bob please, and from the beginning, not where you think you should start.Thinks about it. It does make a lot od sense. That is why the Bensen manual is recognised as the only way without dual training, for people with no flight experience. In other words Bob, YOU!!I am hanging in there with you Bob[^], please hang in there withe me and my advice.[]Aussie Paul.[]www.firebirdgyros.com

[asra]

Bob, Mate.The advice that Paul has given above is definately the way to go.Think about it, you will be solving the major problem in a positiveway, that is, learning to fly your Gyro ! Once you start doing that,by being towed, I think you will find that it will be less frustrating and things will begin to fall into place. Solve one problem at a time. After I built a Gyro I would want to fly it as soon as possible. Paul has shown you the way to do that and a way to learn first hand, the basics and fundermentals.I want you to succeed without injury because I want to see the picsyou take once you are up and flying. Bit selfish I know, sorry.Some of the Guys here might be able to advise you on the size andlength of a tow cable and the kind of attachment required and whether it needs to be a quick release etc. How about you post the pics that you were talking about, when you were looking at the rotor angles etc. Might be easier for us to spot something.Cheers.PS: Geez, I would like to spend some time right now in a Gyro Glider.Robert DunnMackay. Qld.Growing old is good while it lasts.

[asra]

Ok, Ok ! now that does make sense.... thank you Paul !however I cannot do what you sujest I can't drive the car and be in the gyro at the same time. I know I know get a friend to tow me , impossable he lives 2000 miles away ! .... As mark Pointed out its up to me to control the head ... i kind'a thought it might be comeing to that... aurgh ! Paul... I would love to do what you sujest ... I have thought about it many times before... but the surcumstances won't permit it ,. I think your assessment of the siduation is spot on ... Again.... that would explane the angleof the rotors.... unfortionately.... at the moment I see no way out of the problem... but I'll work on it ...perhaps I can take the gyro to a dry lake in eastern Oregon and have room up there.... this landing strip is 1400ft long with a bump on one end and is surrounded by tall pines 100ft from the strip on all sides but to the north ... ... thats not realy long enough space to tow the thing. perhaps if I spun up the blades with the prerotator it might be just leave the prop off. its an idea.... I might be able to comondier my Dad to tow me, but to be quite frank I'ed feel safer with him out of the way not in front of me ! hehehehehehehheto answer your question , no I havn't flown it as a glider. and I agree that would no doubt help.... I'll see what I can do, no promices !... Mr Dunn... I'll see what I can scrounge up in the way of pics for ya . and post them next.thank you guys ! that was Helpfull... even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear ! Good information alwayse is ! THANK YOU !C ya Bob......" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

pics...the first and 2nd to last pics are the most recent, with the new front wheel and 4'hub bar.... the new position of the tail wheel isn't shown but it drops the tail wheel a good 4" with a spring and hindged bar. I have numerious other pictures... but they all are about the same . Paul do you think this area big enough to tow it as a glider ?c ya !Bob.....Image Insert:Image Insert:Image Insert: 38.9 KBImage Insert: 16.29 KBImage Insert: 17.06

[asra]

Bob if you cant find a driver, then who is taking all these photos of you...?

[asra]

My Dad,is takeing the pics, I trust him more with the camara ya see.C ya !Bob......" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

quote:Originally posted by Pete BarsdenGentlemen,To repeat myself again......of all countries with strong litigation laws...... Pete BarsdenPete,[] if I worried about litigation laws, I would never get out of bed[^]. IMHO helping people is far more important than worrying about litigation and such things.But I must say, me old mate Bob is wearing me thin[]I hope to be in Perth late April to get David Brown finished off and down to Margaret River to take Magni Michael through his cross country and passenger endoresments. It would be nice to catch up and have a chin wag[^].Aussie Paul.[]www.firebirdgyros.com