interesting discovery, well new to me !

[asra]

A while back a friend of mine told me that the tilt back to the tail wheel should be arround 6" or less.... I listened but it never dawned on me why this was important so I paid it little heed.... to my shrigin, I discover that it is very important.... here is what I found , mostly for you lurkers out there that are going it on your own.... I was looking at old photos of my gyro in action and it seemed to me the rotor was tilted way up most of the time when it was on the tail wheel even when it was at the ballanceing point.... Yes my Dad took a pick at the right time ! Thank you Dad !.... anyway.... my gyro wouldn't go much faster that about 24mph and at that speed it seemed rigidly affixed to the ground at this high altitude..... but as I was looking through the photos I noticed more pics of the rotor being too steep.... infact all of them were... except one... the one just before it flipped over on its side because of my own stupid fault..... in that pic all the wheels are off the ground but one the right main.... but the realy interesting thing about the maralacious pic besides catching the crash just seconds before it happened was the fact that the Rotor was down at least 20 degrees less than what all the other pics showed... and the gyro was flying at that point.... unfortionately it wasn't a controled flight ! thinking about it it dawned on me what the problem was.... ...many will probly disagree with this but this is how I see it ....because my gyro tilts alot when going to the tail wheel it raises the front wheel off the ground at least 9".... if you are thinking the way I was thinking you'ed say ok so what ? the angle of attack of the rotor is controled by the stick not the frame.... and you'ed be right .... BUT there are other considerations..... it is almost impossable for me to tell how the rotor is tilteda little or a big amount... you instintly FEEL the lift of the rotor ,the ballance of the machine on the mains or lack there of ... you know that once on the tail wheel you need to push the stick foward to get the weight off the tail wheel and ballance on the mains..... but sense my gyro tilted back so far that still left me with too steep of an angle of attack to fly.... that is why the only pic that i have of the gyro in the air is when I pushed the stick foward and got it off the tail wheel on purpose.... then it spead up and leeped into the air butt first.... .. by the time i started pulling back on the stick i was already air borne.... the rotor angle was just right for flight for the first time ... and it gratefully jumped into the air like it was supposed to ! if however the rotor had been at a lower angle of attack it would have flone alot sooner and left the ground properly to boot !its the distance the front wheel is traveling up ...the tilt of the entire craft is way too steep.....if you think about it its so simple it is silly ! if the front wheel only raised say 3" instead of 9" there would be little change in the angle of attack of the rotor when transisioning to the tailwheel... then combine that with moveing the stick foward to ballance on the mains it all adds up to less angle of attack on the rotors.... its no wonder i found it impossable to ballance the thing on the mains.... I could get it real close but not ballancebecause there was little lift from the rotor...a LOT of drag but little lift.... change the angle of attack and you have more lift and less dragwith less drag the speed will increase ... with the increase of speed flight is then inevitable , or crash ,depending on your point of view....sense the feel of the rotor's angle of attack is all you have to guage with in an un known un proven machine and pilot the tilting back angle is vitalI have no doubt that an experienced gyro pilot would not have had that problem .... but I did ! infact it was partly responcable for the crash last summer the fact that the gyro finally flew for a few seconds proves that when I finally put the stick foward it took off........so if your getting close to trying your gyro and your going it alone like I have, remember the tilt back angle is important ... not just because someone said so there is a reason its important ! so keep it in mind No doubt there will be some to say I am supposed to feel the angle or at the very least know where the blades are before you try to fly the thing.! but remember I have had no formal instructions and I am trying to figure this out on my own.... ballaanceing on the mains has its purpose it puts you at the right angle for flight ...it has to there is no way arround it ! .... but when your craft tilts as far as mine did there is no ballanceing in any way shape or form.... not by a rank amiture like myself , I have tried ! many many times...but changeing that tilt should make a big diference both to the ballanceing and the angle of attack .... I thought it interesting enough to share with those of you who care.by all means get instructions if you can afford it don't go through what I have if you can do it the easy way ! catcha later !Bob......." Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[Brian]

I hope I dont regret this advice later!!!Bob, you only have to BALANCE on the main gear, as long as the nosewheel is one inch off the deck, you are balancing the gyro. Use of the throttle is vitally important, once the nose comes up, back off the throttle till you have the nosewheel a couple of inches off the deck.You should only try this in NO wind and the controll stick needs to be centralized at all times [unless the gyro starts to tilt]Brian

[NiqueNaque]

I only have one thing to say...If you'd have gone to an instructor you would have learnt this a looooonnng time ago.Cheers.Nicholas TomlinAlarmist - www.alarmist.com.au - we scare for you

[asra]

You both are verry correct ! sense I have a front wheel that comes off the ground aprox 9" ballanceing on the mains was clost to impossable ! so I got it as close as I could ...but I discovered that isn't good enough ... ballanceing on the mains is vital ...because it puts the rotor at the proper angle of attack for take off...I tried to shortcut arround it , ...BAD IDEA ! However Lowering the tail wheel with a "Springy tail wheel " i made will get the front wheel alot closer to the ground ...and should make ballanceing possable now... so its back to square one and start all over again .... but even if it takes me all summer to ballance on the mains , I'll do it by golly ! .... at least I know WHY now .... and thats something !cya'Bob........." Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

Something else I have come to realise in the last month or so, as I first posted is only partially correct... I found out that in doing the haing test you MUST wedge the rotor head at its mid point... where the stick should be centered... I had never hurd that before , and sense in the haing tests I did , all 7 of themthe stick was subsiquently full foward..... makeing the actual angle of the rotorwhen the stick is centered 10 degrees further up....sense most gyros are set to attound 9 to 12 degrees AOA whenthe stick is centered and nose wheel down.... mine was at 22 degrees , nakeing it impossable to gain speed, ballance on the mains and in general it was screwed up because of this single fault.... so When I get arround to haing testing it again I will wedge the head to where it is holding the stick in the netural position. that and the lowering of the tail wheel will at least give me a fighting chance to ballance on the mains and work into the hops again..... just thought that might help someone ! C ya !Bob........" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

quote:Originally posted by Bob K.Something else I have come to realise in the last month or so, as I first posted is only partially correct... I found out that in doing the haing test you MUST wedge the rotor head at its mid point... where the stick should be centered... I had never hurd that before , and sense in the haing tests I did , all 7 of themthe stick was subsiquently full foward..... makeing the actual angle of the rotorwhen the stick is centered 10 degrees further up....sense most gyros are set to attound 9 to 12 degrees AOA whenthe stick is centered and nose wheel down.... mine was at 22 degrees , nakeing it impossable to gain speed, ballance on the mains and in general it was screwed up because of this single fault.... so When I get arround to haing testing it again I will wedge the head to where it is holding the stick in the netural position. that and the lowering of the tail wheel will at least give me a fighting chance to ballance on the mains and work into the hops again..... just thought that might help someone ! C ya !Bob........" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "Incorrect Bob. Yes the stick should be centered during the hang test BUT it will usually only alter the hang test of a single seater a degree or so.Aussie Paul.[]www.firebirdgyros.com

[NiqueNaque]

Has the penny dropped Bob?You've admitted to design, building and flying mistakes in the above, at least you've learnt something.Now, please, take your machine to the nearest PRA chapter and get it checked before you go any further, and get some instructions. Don't fly without training from an instructor.Nicholas TomlinAlarmist - www.alarmist.com.au - we scare for you

[asra]

Yes Paul You are correct that the angle will only differ a degree or two, in the haing test itself. Why then would the rotor be 10 degrees higher than it should be .... Flat on the ground the rotor pivot bar is level with the ground and frame with the stick full fowardat the netural position the rotor is way up there , probly 22 to 25 degrees ( I havn't measured it , just from the pics ) yet the throw of the stick is correct in every respect.... the haing test is the only screw up .... it don't make sense ! ... Bob........ I'm ignoreing you Nique Naque !" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[asra]

quote:Originally posted by Bob K.Yes Paul You are correct that the angle will only differ a degree or two, in the haing test itself. Why then would the rotor be 10 degrees higher than it should be .... Flat on the ground the rotor pivot bar is level with the ground and frame with the stick full fowardat the netural position the rotor is way up there , probly 22 to 25 degrees ( I havn't measured it , just from the pics ) yet the throw of the stick is correct in every respect.... the haing test is the only screw up .... it don't make sense ! ... Bob........ I'm ignoreing you Nique Naque !" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "Bob, when the gyro is sitting on level ground the average maximum back stick gives the rotor disc AoA of 18 to 20 degrees. Bensen manual. That hang test has no influence on this figure. The geometry of the rotor head is what sets that figure.What the hang test does is make sure that when flying s/l at cruise speed, the stick position is approx central fore and aft. This allows full control movements both ways, fore and aft, to control the gyro. If the hang test is set too nose down, then you may not have enough back stick to flare at the bottom of the descent, SPLAT!!!Around 20 years ago I wrote a couple of pages with info to set up the average single place gyro. I seemed to be telling a lot od people the same story all the time. No one in those days put any info or plans on paper for fear of litigation. I said, "Stuff this, I believe what I have written will not put me at risk I and put my name to it."I believe that it is still not too far away from being correct today. There is always more than one way to skin a cat BUT I had proven that what I was doing was one successful way. I will attach the 2 pages.Aussie Paul.[]Image Insert: 87.71

[asra]

OHHH ! thank you Paul !Very good info there !My rotor head has a movement of level , stick full foward20 degrees back ,stick full back8 degrees each side..... my haing test was set right at 10 degrees but without the head locked in the netural position ..... Sense I can see no reason for the rotor to have been so high in all the pics and alot lower in the only one with the beast off the ground I can come to only one conclusion then .... the only thing left is ROTOR speed itself..... if the rotor was not spinning at flight speed it would be flaping a bit in the pics RIGHT ????... which means all my running arround out there my rotor was turning way too slow.... not too suppriseing to me as there towards the last my rotor speed indicator was showing a faster speed than it ever did ! compaired to the usual 20 it was at 32 to 35 ... Does this sound reasonable to you Paul ? thank you for your help ! it is greatly appreaciated ! Bob........" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[NiqueNaque]

OK, ignore us all at your peril.Time to wake up Bob.... no other way to put it:!!!!!!!!!! "Dead Man Walking" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!Temporary American!See you in Valhalla. [ah, correction - Bob is not a warrior, he won't go to Valhalla.. so he'll go to Hel, held in thral by the demons]I recall a Meryl Streep show to the same effect, to contrast with this the only crime being commited here is total stupidity, get some lessons BOB K, before you become Bob decay, as in rot in your grave. I can chuckle at this now because you haven't killed yourself ............. yet [yeah, get a day job, Nick]. Who will mourn your loss, who will cry, do you have any children?For the sake of a fist full of dollars would you give up your life?Please Bob, get some lessons, that way you get to enjoy your 1000 hours of gyro time, not just 1, or 10, or 100, as the case may be.Nicholas TomlinAlarmist - www.alarmist.com.au - we scare for you

[asra]

quote:Originally posted by Bob K.OHHH ! thank you Paul !Very good info there !My rotor head has a movement of level , stick full foward20 degrees back ,stick full back8 degrees each side..... my haing test was set right at 10 degrees but without the head locked in the netural position ..... Sense I can see no reason for the rotor to have been so high in all the pics and alot lower in the only one with the beast off the ground I can come to only one conclusion then .... the only thing left is ROTOR speed itself..... if the rotor was not spinning at flight speed it would be flaping a bit in the pics RIGHT ????... which means all my running arround out there my rotor was turning way too slow.... not too suppriseing to me as there towards the last my rotor speed indicator was showing a faster speed than it ever did ! compaired to the usual 20 it was at 32 to 35 ... Does this sound reasonable to you Paul ? thank you for your help ! it is greatly appreaciated ! Bob........" Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "Wrong again Bob. Bob, please at least read and understand the Bensen manuals. I really don't have the time to keep spoon feeding you when the info is out there.Your posts of the last couple of days have really highlighted how little you have learned thus far.[V]Bob, read the BLOODY[!] Bensen manual and follow it to a T, or get instruction. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be successful without doing one or the other. I am making more of an effort for you than you are for yourself Bob. That ain't fair mate!!!Aussie Paul.[]www.firebirdgyros.com

[asra]

Paul I am just trying to figure out why in the pictures the rotor is tilted back so far on every pic but the one off the ground, I'm grabbing at straws here that should be ovious I know well how it SHOULD WORK.... I wann'a know why it didn't work ! if answering a serious question is too much for ya paul I'm sorry I asked , I take everything you say quite seriously because your my kind of people, hard headded gruff at times but you know your stuff, I reconise that and i am sure others out there do as well...... I just wann'a know why the rotors are high in other pics and the one where its off the ground the rotor is alot lower.... obviously the angle of attack is Wrong most of the time.... but why ...thats the question ! I think there is something not right with my gyro's set up ... and if You don't know what it is paul No one will ! I am guessing now and I don't like to GUESS when it comes to my gyro I think you can understand that !that is why i am so persistant ! if you think your beating your head against the wall then so be it , thanks anyway ! I appreaciate the help you've given in many ways ! thanks fer the chat !Bob....... ....Nique ..stuff a sock in it will ya ! ...." Momm'a alwayse told me , Son the impossable is only a little bit Harder... and ya know I do believe She was RIGHT ! "

[Tim]

Bob, the angle of attack of the rotor disc when you are belting along the strip at flying speed is directly proportional to the position of the joystick. i.e. it is the pilot that causes the disc to fly at that angle, not the machineTim McClureBroken Hill

[Brian]

Bob, whenever you decide to do something that you dont know anything about, its always a good idea to learn as much as you possibly can about the subject. The information you need is in "how to fly gyros and why they fly etc which is in the books you need to read to learn about how to fly .Paul has given you great advice, READ THE BENSEN MANUALS till you you get it!!! If you dont get it, read them again and again till you do get it !! OR GET INSTRUCTION !! THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS IN LEARNING TO FLY A GYRO. Yes, you can try but the chances of sucess are limited!!Bob, I believe we all here on the forum feel that we are beating our head against the wall.BrianPooncarie NSW