This is a follow on from Daveb's post about flat spins, today, I was pushing a mob of sheep along and the lift was good and it was a great day for flying and so after a few k's I got a bit bored and decided to try a few things. We have talked about spins and in particular, spins with very little forward airspeed or with actually minus airspeed [or a basic tailslide] I pulled up fairly steeply with normal cruise of power till the gyro stopped forward airspeed then throttled back a few hundred revs, the gyro started a tailslide and I then gave the gyro a bit of rudder with the obvious result, a backwards turn under controll. Still with the nose held high, the turn started to quicken up and I didnt like what I was feeling [coming back through the gyro] so I used opposite rudder and nothing happened except the turn quickened up so I applied power and a bit of nose down, the gyro straightened up but not as well or as quickly as I expected. I got the feeling that if I was to let the spin continue, it would quicken up real quickly and not be all that easy to get out off !Anyone doing tailslides need's to keep the gyro straight at all times and keep plenty of power on unless you have plenty of height and enjoy a possible fright !BrianPooncarie NSW
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Unless you know how to fly backwards Brian.[ its wot i was refern to the other day. There are sum nasty supprises if you get into negative airflow] I'm just glad you didn't let it go too far, the gremlin missed you that time.Plaese, everyone, be carful bout nevative airflow, its not wot you'll be expecting.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.birdy, here.
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Unless you know how to fly backwards Brian.[ its wot i was refern to the other day. There are sum nasty supprises if you get into negative airflow] I'm just glad you didn't let it go too far, the gremlin missed you that time.Plaese, everyone, be carful bout nevative airflow, its not wot you'll be expecting.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.birdy, here.
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What surprised me what the sharpness of the turn for the little bit of rudder that I gave it and then the quickness to want to spin and then the reluctance for the gyro to want to come out of it.Dont worry, I wasnt that brave to let it go very far before I took recovery action as I didnt have a lot of height to play with !!Got to say that no wonder that bloke from Whyalla that got into a full backwards spin got the scare of his life !!BrianPooncarie NSW
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What surprised me what the sharpness of the turn for the little bit of rudder that I gave it and then the quickness to want to spin and then the reluctance for the gyro to want to come out of it.Dont worry, I wasnt that brave to let it go very far before I took recovery action as I didnt have a lot of height to play with !!Got to say that no wonder that bloke from Whyalla that got into a full backwards spin got the scare of his life !!BrianPooncarie NSW
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Given this discussion, a few questions come to mind:-1. Is the suggested recovery from a 'forward' spin opposite rudder and plenty of power? 2. On entering a spin what would be the indication it involved negative airflow and how would the indications be diffent from a positive airflow spin?3. What would be the suggested recovery action for a reverse flow spin?4. If a positive flow spin is allowed to continue and deepen, is the suggested recovery different from continuing to apply opposite rudder and power (assuming this is your suggested method)?5. If a negative flow spin is encountered and allowed to deepen what is a suggested recovery method?6. When mustering, are you using a pullup into a 180 degree spin as a way of turning quickly rather than something like a pedal turn with backstick? Do you pour on power as you exit the turn to maintain height?Dave
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Given this discussion, a few questions come to mind:-1. Is the suggested recovery from a 'forward' spin opposite rudder and plenty of power? 2. On entering a spin what would be the indication it involved negative airflow and how would the indications be diffent from a positive airflow spin?3. What would be the suggested recovery action for a reverse flow spin?4. If a positive flow spin is allowed to continue and deepen, is the suggested recovery different from continuing to apply opposite rudder and power (assuming this is your suggested method)?5. If a negative flow spin is encountered and allowed to deepen what is a suggested recovery method?6. When mustering, are you using a pullup into a 180 degree spin as a way of turning quickly rather than something like a pedal turn with backstick? Do you pour on power as you exit the turn to maintain height?Dave
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Dave,1: recovery from a forward spin is the same as any gain in AS, add power and ease the nose down. If the rudder is centered, the machine will stop rotating when it gets sum airflow.2:ENTERING negative airflow isn't 'feelable'. To an extent, it'll 'feel' the same as a 0 AS decent.3:Itll depend on how far you'v let it go. You know you'v gon too far when all control inputs have a reversed reaction. So obviosly, recovery will require wot'll seem to be reversed inputs.4:No.5: Same as in no.3, but the catch is KNOWING if you have negative airflow.6: it depends on the situation. Theres alota ways to turn tail quick, and most times its on full tap, entering, during, exiting and for the next half hour.If you concentrate on making sure you have a bit of forward speed, you'll have nuthn to fear.It's not the lack of ventilation that'll make you sweat if the brease stops.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.birdy, here.
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Dave,1: recovery from a forward spin is the same as any gain in AS, add power and ease the nose down. If the rudder is centered, the machine will stop rotating when it gets sum airflow.2:ENTERING negative airflow isn't 'feelable'. To an extent, it'll 'feel' the same as a 0 AS decent.3:Itll depend on how far you'v let it go. You know you'v gon too far when all control inputs have a reversed reaction. So obviosly, recovery will require wot'll seem to be reversed inputs.4:No.5: Same as in no.3, but the catch is KNOWING if you have negative airflow.6: it depends on the situation. Theres alota ways to turn tail quick, and most times its on full tap, entering, during, exiting and for the next half hour.If you concentrate on making sure you have a bit of forward speed, you'll have nuthn to fear.It's not the lack of ventilation that'll make you sweat if the brease stops.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.birdy, here.
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Thanks Birdy, your reply is pretty well spot on.Best advice is to leave negative airflow spins alone but ots good to know that the situation is recoverable but start the recovery quickly before the spin really gets going !Daveb, No 4. Most of my low level turns are done with a climb [ to keep rotors clear of the ground] and I usually just use enough rudder to balance the turn and sometimes no increase in power as the 2.2 has plenty of torque BUT if my airspeed is low to start with I put power on before the climb and hold power on till the turn is completed! Always keep in mind the wind direction as you dont want to be turning at low level with the wind up your tail !!!!! unless there's plenty of lift about !When doing low level turns, you will probably find the conditions will vary so whatever worked an hour ago or yesterday, might not work right now so always leave a back door open by making your first run with height to spare and take notice what your gyro is telling you re "feel". Most stock usually take more than one low level pass to shift them if they havent already moved off as you approached them and I like to keep off the stock as much as possible so they dont gallop off which is not what the boss will want !!! as its very dificult to controll an animal thats galloped for the last half an hour !! I generally try [or fly] as conservatively as possible as there are nuts and bolts holding those bits of alloy together and wear and tear happens over thousands of hours. Anybody trailering gyros need to be very vigilant in pre flight checks as I found trailering on dirt roads very hard on the machine . Hey Birdy, whats this "full tap " stuff ??? I havent had to do that since I got the 2.2 and I have only used full throttle once or twice !!BrianPooncarie NSW
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Thanks Birdy, your reply is pretty well spot on.Best advice is to leave negative airflow spins alone but ots good to know that the situation is recoverable but start the recovery quickly before the spin really gets going !Daveb, No 4. Most of my low level turns are done with a climb [ to keep rotors clear of the ground] and I usually just use enough rudder to balance the turn and sometimes no increase in power as the 2.2 has plenty of torque BUT if my airspeed is low to start with I put power on before the climb and hold power on till the turn is completed! Always keep in mind the wind direction as you dont want to be turning at low level with the wind up your tail !!!!! unless there's plenty of lift about !When doing low level turns, you will probably find the conditions will vary so whatever worked an hour ago or yesterday, might not work right now so always leave a back door open by making your first run with height to spare and take notice what your gyro is telling you re "feel". Most stock usually take more than one low level pass to shift them if they havent already moved off as you approached them and I like to keep off the stock as much as possible so they dont gallop off which is not what the boss will want !!! as its very dificult to controll an animal thats galloped for the last half an hour !! I generally try [or fly] as conservatively as possible as there are nuts and bolts holding those bits of alloy together and wear and tear happens over thousands of hours. Anybody trailering gyros need to be very vigilant in pre flight checks as I found trailering on dirt roads very hard on the machine . Hey Birdy, whats this "full tap " stuff ??? I havent had to do that since I got the 2.2 and I have only used full throttle once or twice !!BrianPooncarie NSW
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Thanks to David and Brian for this input. All noted, especially about the possibility of a negative airflow situation. Sinks are listed in our ops manual in the second chapter and described as "an important and enjoyable part of flying the gyro" - yep, had to look it up. Power off sinks are described but nothing about what to do if you find yourself in an unplanned spin, although adding power is clearly stated for sink recovery.Maybe some of the points in the above posts should be considered for inclusion? Dave
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Thanks to David and Brian for this input. All noted, especially about the possibility of a negative airflow situation. Sinks are listed in our ops manual in the second chapter and described as "an important and enjoyable part of flying the gyro" - yep, had to look it up. Power off sinks are described but nothing about what to do if you find yourself in an unplanned spin, although adding power is clearly stated for sink recovery.Maybe some of the points in the above posts should be considered for inclusion? Dave
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