Gyro flying school???

[asra]

There are far too many of us trained as Instructors, but not doing anything, there are probably as many reasons for this as there are inactive instructors. As already pointed out it requires a considerable investment of time, dedication and capital, and may well be a good way of making a small fortune - out of a big one!An area I would like to explore is one used extensively by all airlines and air forces to develop and hone skills - SIMULATION!I doubt that computer based simulation gives sufficient realism to be of much use, perhaps some could correct me on this.The Gyroglider provided very good simulation, but was very labour intensive, it would thus not be practical in the commercial school setting, it appears to have been virtually abandoned.As I see it, the powered two seater is overkill for ab initio, too many things are happening at once in the T/O (compared with FW) making it difficult to aquire the basic skills in the sequence they are required. The cost of keeping it operating appear to be quite high as well.A few years ago when I was active, I experimented, on days that were too windy for gyroglider work, by balancing a trainer gyro on a tow ball. This was far from perfect as with the pivot point underneath, and the rotor and airframe drag high up we had a serious thrust/drag offset, hmmm - mount it in a gimbal arrangement?I will be doing some experiments with another form of simulation in the next few months.Members with expensive machines will be interested to learn that hull and seat insurance is now available from our insurers, not cheap, but what insurance is?Greg Williams is starting his gyro school on the NSW South Coast using a new Sparrowhawk, he has to aquire time in it, but comes to us from a GA Instructor background.There was a suggestion a few years ago that Coonamble would be a great base for the type of operation that has been suggested, nothing came of it, furthermore current security requirements would rule it out. John EvansThink logically and do things well, think laterally and do things better.

[asra]

[Des Garvin]

Hi All, Me again, John I have often wondered why some smarter person than me has not come up wth a way where by the very basis of gyro flying the rotor management be taught with some form of fixed arangement of a mast, seat, rotors and a air moving device to generate simulated flight charaturistics. This is where the fly the rotor could be ingrained into the student with out the other distractions of flight.Ok so I am just daydreaming OR am I.Dave Bird stated some where that with gyros learn to always fly the rotor. This was what started my thoughts along the line of remove all other distractions so the student deals with the rotor management basics only with out moving.Ok any suggestions how this could be done.Remember,What you focus on grows. Des Gravin

[asra]

Guy,sMy interest in Gyro's started in 1959, and the requirement for a cheap basic no frills two seat trainer with instructor/s is still the same today, and has not changed, all the "gum beating" in the world is not going to get anything done, and "Training Schools" is pie in the sky stuff, we do not have the likes of a Kerry Packer in the Asscociation, ask the past Instructors with their own gyro's how financial their training programs were, learn from history.I still believe that the only way that and end result is achievable is at Club level, "pooling" members skills and talents and very importantly their money with everyone pitching in and helping, this is the way the R.C.W.A (Rotorcraft Club of W A) operated in the early days, we produced a two seat Glider and a new enclosed trailer, acquired a large tow vehicle and all accessories, and everyone pitched in for the Aircraft, vehicle, trailer and accessories maintenance, this generated a great club spirit within the members as they had some equity in all the above.Remember the age old saying, "don't talk about it, do it".Pete Barsden

[birdy]

Hmmmm............. seems most so far agree itd be a good thing, but no one seems to think its go'n to pay its way.Theres a very simple way to gauge viability in any busness, supply and demand.If theres no demand, theres no money in providing a supply, no matter how cheap the process is. IOW, if no one wants it, its worthless.So, see'n how theres nearly a 100% agreeance on the 'need', wouldn't that translate to a ' demand'??And if there was a 'supply', it'd feed on its self and grow.Trouble is, such a setup requires a fairly big startup investment.I think it'd be a good thing.[ thats obviose, or i would't av suggested it]But i'm not in the position to volenteer even a sample of time towards such a show, but i am in the position to help out with the startup cost.Theres a strong and rapidly growing interest in these machines in this little corner of Oz, and the more machines there are around, the more it'll grow. I'd imagine itd be much the same in most areas.The gyro population here has grown from 3 12 months ago[ 2 o them where mine] to 9 now. [Flies don't even breed that quick]. BUT, only 4 machines are flyn, WHY, coz there ain't instruction avalable.A dedicated flyn school would lift the profile of these machines AND those who fly them. And a higher profile will only lift its popularity.Wot i'm try'n to blurt out is basicaly this;I owe alot to these machines AND the VOLENTEERS who do there utmost to support those who fly them.If i hadn't discovered the gyro, i wouldn't be in the position i'm in now, a position where i'm able to help financialy to lift the popularity, profile and productivity of gyros.ASRA are do'n their bit [ volentarily], but they need support, and that support don't mean just a PAT ON THE BACK.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.You can always get the answer you want, if you ask enough experts.

[asra]

G'Day BirdmanI have been promoting to fellow flyers, that Gyro's will be the next best thing in ultralight aviation within the next 10 to 15 years.Look at Trikes, they have become known as very forgiving, easy to fy, very reliable and safe little machines. Due to these trates, they are now probably the most popular ultralight machine flying today. I beleive gyro's offer an even better case, and will no dought one day overtake trikes as number one.Today's problem in OZ and the world is the lack of readly avaiable certified machine, as not everyone can, or has the ability to build.If someone could come up with a similar package to say an Airbourne Edge trike, being fully certified, 1 and 2 seater, semi enclose, and similar in price, then they would be on a winner.Such a machine could be marketed as the all weather equivilent of a trike, with the added safety of shortfield landing. Then couple this with real gyro flying schools, and sales, would the gyro industry take a turn in OZ and OS.Regards Sam.

[MechFx]

Just thought I'd offer up an option from left field.Has anyone ever considered a mobile training school ???Seems to me that the 2nd most frequent complaint regarding training is that when you can find it , its too far away.Sounds to me like an enterprising instructor with a motor home and a 2 seat trainer on a trailer could make a decent living travelling around the country, in relative comfort, servicing a market that already exists.Set up costs would be much reduced, no leases or hangar fees.Not tied down to a certain area and associated limitations (weather etc)Hourly rates could be higher, justified by savings for the student (not travelling away from home, accomodation , maybe not even having to take time off work ??? etc )And training would then be taking place in the area where the newly qualified students would be flying. More familiarity in the early hours makes for safer learning ??If this instructor was also a T/A then students machines could be checked out at the same time, removing some buy-it and fly-it incidents.Manufacturers and suppliers could promote through this person and they could become a one stop Gyro shop, that came to your door.This wouldn't be as succesful near the bigger cities but might just make a difference everywhere else.And what an adventure it would be.What do you all think ?Art SpinkGyroNews Editor

[asra]

[birdy]

You get only wot you pay for.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.You can always get the answer you want, if you ask enough experts.

[asra]

Pete F.Y.IThe airfield I fly from, is the home base of one of Victoria's leading Hang Gliding schools, and they charge $160.00 per hour, and are flat chat every weekend.Now that includes talk time, setup, winch launch, and airfield usage.If one is lucky you may get 2 X 10 min flights.What is the total cost to the school ? well other than running the old unregisterd Subbie wagon, then very minimal.Hhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm.Sam

[MechFx]

When I flew with Roger Savage in England in a Magni he charged 99GBP - about $240 per hour. Art SpinkGyroNews Editor

[asra]

Arthur,As I have said before, talk to the instructors, I would suggest you speak to Albert Gobius for example, he was a traveling instructor, he will set you straight on the "viabillity" of this approach,Pete Barsden

[Des Garvin]

Now how many inderviduals would be prepared to place a minmium of $1000.00 each into a full time school for gyros? Now don't be shy put up your hand and show your comitment. I am prepared to do so, what about you.What you focus on grows. Des Gravin

[airboats]

Refreshingly, this is one of the most constructive topics I have followed in recent times. Thanks Dave. The RAA fixed wing mob have enjoyed unprecedented success with their annual NatFly at Narromine. They rapidly understood the need for a permanent base to cater for that annual pilgrimage, which would also provide a Nationally recognisable Home base for their branch of aviation.Difficult it is, to deny their success so far with over 5000 members, and the subsequent political voice and professional status that success engenders.For undeniable success one only needs to ask an Oshkosh pilgrim how the american EAA has expanded to today's giant following.ASRA perhaps needs to follow that path ( I am sure it has been mentioned before in these cyber hallways)and concurrent with a National home base, wherever that may be, could be the creation of such a school with existing ASRA executive expertise to hand for promotional media comment and unfettered flying displays for demonstration purposes.Annual schools for TA courses and Instructor qualifications would have a solid venue; with many new students available for new Instructors undergoing training themselves at the one location. Standardisation of teaching (and learning) methodologies of both Pilot training and Aircraft construction would go a long way to the diminution of perceived unprofessionalism of our Aviation branch by uninformed others. Presumptious it may be, to contemplate that ASRA consider pursuing the promotion of a definitive "career" path for newcomers that very actively fosters the gaining of Initial Pilot Qualifications with immediate progression to gaining Instructor ratings by individuals who demonstrate commitment and ability not only to fly but effectively teach. GA-Helo-Gliding-RAA have all done this successfully. Yes, we do have the Grandfather clause Instructors all getting long in the dentures now and we need to be actively creating avenues for the contemplaters amongst us now and those yet to arrive.This could be achieved by concentrating expertise and equipment at one site including several Dual seat aircraft that either ASRA might own or be provided (and maintained?)at reasonable hourly rates by the on site manufacturers keen to sell more of their product. Instructors could be the current roving type, or fixed locality types, perhaps allocating a block commitment of 2 or 3 weeks at a time to preserve their normal life. A Nationally distributed regular roster of available Instructors at the site could perhaps evolve?Acceptable, affordable accomodation on site for all would be mandatory.A centralised ASRA home base/school could perhaps provide a shopfront venue for the developing (and established) manufacturers of our aircraft (and Accessories)like Butterflies, Monarchs, Firebirds, RAFs, UFOs, Patroneys, Rotax, Subaru etc, etc; so crucial to expanding our visibility to the masses of single income no kids, well cashed up,potential new pilots and their extended families.Essentially, like all sports we need to attract youth with dynamism and enthusiasm to invigorate our ranks. The extremely valid comments made by others that Gyros are inherently going to crash or be much less safe than an Ultralight/GA/Balloon or other aviation field must be addressed urgently, if we are to promote the suitability and effectiveness of our existing Instruction methodologies and the Aircraft themselves as worth investing the same amount of money as can be spent in FW, Trikes etc. A single, media driven, hysterically reported photo of bent rotors on a fence has the metophorical potential for us all to take up knitting.To continue to accept the regular reports of substantial, costly aircraft damage from pilot error or component failure demonstrates an incapacity to realise this alone may seal our evolutionary fate with CASA and your next door neigbours who will vote away your right to fly in a nanosecond if one of us ever suffers the misfortune of a fatal roof top landing or ever does a Jack Newton on some politicianspet hound that wanders onto an airfield into a prop.One disgruntled innefectual at Port Arthur saw Ozzy Gun owners become branded as criminals till proven otherwise. Several followers of a faith steering Boeings into twin buildings saw all aviators internationally become suspect in the eyes of their neighbours, demonstrating that it only takes a sometimes insignificant event or individual to affect the rights of many. Pete (WA) and Pete (Vic) makes valid comment re Albert Gobious and others experience with Mobile Instruction proving detrimental to fiscal security and family relationships and Paul B (Vic) could certainly provide salient comment re those viabilities with roving teaching both here in Oz and abroad. However, if we always do what we always did we will continue to stagnate in that we fail to begin attracting hordes of new members crucial to swelling our ranks, supporting our image, our future and the shared costs of creating such a home base and school. Membership increases are always viewed with derision by rank and file of any following, but perhaps that may be a future topic for discussion by the ASRA executive as a means of financing such a venture. I fully endorse again the decision to add insurance to our membership cost which is still paltry indeed compared to the annual inescapable costs related to my employment and or home insurance which most folk pay without a thought coz that's life.Surely there is an old airfield or large vacant area away from controlled airspace somewhere, that others may have stroked their chins like Plato in contemplation of what could be? Broken Hill near Rossco the manufacturer (and our president Tim) perhaps or this side of the ranges near the wealth of talent at Parkes-Forbes, or logically at Lethbridge with existing infrastructure and expertise?In the spirit of put up or shutup, if it gets built within 200 ks of my SA home I will provide all my earthmoving machinery at fuel cost only for runway construction and environs creation. And coz we are halfway between WA and NSW with more days of sunshine annually than the Gold Coast, that might not be a bad location for a school eh?Even Territorians come down here for hollies Dave.I'll go back to my sandpit and shutup now.Mike

[Des Garvin]

Well put Mike, I was thinking to myself that in all fairness to all Aussies for a central location with lots of safe area to train over with good facilities near by South Australia may be the place.From my observations when at the nationals there it seems to be a well set up place that Kevin and the S.A club have built. Ok so all those east of the big hill have to climbe that big hill but then you just coast to Lameroo then going home just put up the sail and the westerly will help[]. Now back to my lurking.What you focus on grows. Des Gravin