Hub Bars and Starter Motors

[asra]

Pete i would love to see some pics of both setups if you would email them to me it would be apreciated.I tried to email you but could not get it to send.Thanks Marty..rainam@bigpond.com.au

[asra]

What about this idea!!!why not design a rotor head that is actually an electric motor ,windings enclosed,we still need a cople of bearings in there so if ya hollw out the rotor hub and chuck some windings in there and a few brushs would it work?And then when ya flying it could be a generator for the rest of the showE=MC2

[birdy]

Now your start'n to sound like a real SCG.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.

[asra]

Actually the direct drive motor in the Fisher and Paykel washing machine could be promising if someone would go to the trouble of working out how to control it for our purpose. There's something for you to work on Peter!I have also been told that GM will shortly be bringing out a direct drive starter/generator which could be usefull. The trouble with driving it from the rotor is that the energy losses would be greater than driving off the engine.John EvansThink logically and do things well, think laterally and do things better.

[Tim]

This subject seems to be getting a fair bit of attention"GM will shortly be bringing out a direct drive starter/generator"The early small Suzuki 4 wheel drive and the Honda Z 360 car both had direct drive starter/alternator. No ring gears and pinion. Both worked very well.One of our mines sparkie/gyronauts started work some time ago on a flat disc motor/charger/electronic rotorbrake, but he has since left town and I havent heard from him for some time.Tim McClure

[asra]

John,And what voltage is this "washing machine" motor?.I'm afraid John that having spent a lot of time and money developing my Drive system to a successful end, I certainly will not be wasting time on the impractical, there seems to be no end of ideas (which is great), however, as the old saying goes "talk is cheap", what I have been trying to do on this forum is to galvanize some action, don't just talk about it, do it, spend your time and money and whether you succeed or fail let us all know the results, remember that a broadcasted documented failure saves other people going down the same time consuming and expensive path, and as such frees them up for other ideas and more productive work, also, remember that failures can be just as important as successes, it is the failures that you build on to overcome problems, a classic example of this is Eddison's incandesent light bulb.If everyone just sits around talking and doing nothing, then nothing gets done. all the best.Pete Barsden

[asra]

Tim,Do the words "soon to come out" remind you of something?, we both have been around for a long time in the Gyro scene, when refering to a new engine comming out that would suit our little Gyroplanes, I do remember one that I thought might actually make the grade was the one Sid Hill and I saw at the Bi-centenial air show at Richmond NSW back in the 80's, it was a small Norton rotary.Remember the "soon to be certified" blurb, and how many of these have we actually seen, and in some cases members can actually afford, for example the Jab's, Lyc's, Conties, the 912's, and 914's.Assuming that this starter/alternater does (a) actually be put into operation, (b) be non expensive, and (c) will it actually suit our aplication, remembering that old saying, the word "IF" is the largest word in the English language.Just in case some people may be thinking that i'm pushing my own barrow here in reguards to my driver unit, may I say empathetically this is not the case, like my composite Rotor System I looked at them both as a challenge.Tim, (or anyone else), if you would like to see the photo's of the driver unit please Email me pjbarsden268@ozemail.com.auBest reguards.Pete Barsden

[asra]

Actually Pete I think I can claim to have some runs on the board[]. Remember we started this thread to draw attention to the magnitude of the impact from a starter. We failed because our apparatus collapsed when we got to 260 lbs impact, and that was not the top of it. We failed to get anyone to confirm/debunk our findings. We failed to get the message across to those who didn't understand the difference between torque and impact. We failed several years ago to have the importance of a soft start recognised. I am now quite distressed that while the Butterfly has a soft start of my design fitted the resistor supplied is quite unsuitable, and doesn't do the job. Fortunately the change to a recoil starter may solve that problem.We have, however, been highly successful in getting some discussion going and stimulating some lateral thinking. That makes it all worth while[:X]John EvansThink logically and do things well, think laterally and do things better.

[asra]

John, My old friend (enough of the old) You'r quite right it has stimulated a lot of discussion, as you know i'm only a new "pea" to the forum, however, "paleface" who are the "Royal We" that have failed?, I think that the Summer 2002/03 Dec-Jan-Feb Vol. 16 No 4 may need re-opening.My experience is, if people are interested then they will ask, if not there is silence, and there is virtually nothing you can do. I wish Mitch all the best in his "Butterfly" project.Pete Barsden

[Greg Mitchell]

G'Day John,Sorry to hear you are so distressed. I too am distressed (not soloed yet/training anomoly).Larry says Matt Pearsons machine is running 16" SS on his Soft Start and has far LESS initial kick. I will try the Nichrome down the track, after I trial the pull start pre-rotator, which I will install after initial solo flights. John, please understand, Larry, Allan, Daj and myself are extremely interested in this topic and that 'Soft Start' and Butterfly's development are still works in progress.Best regards,MitchHi Pete,Great to see you on the forum. I take this oportunity to thank you for all your advice and assistance over the last two years. The "System" you have developed apparently is very similar to David Johnston's advice to us. Daj is into electronics and by all accounts is a bit of a 'Wizzard'. He is keen to collaborate and develop further for use on Butterfly range of craft. He is away for the next week or so but I am sure he will be in touch soon. I would appreciate any info you can send me Pete.rocksfly@dodo.com.auBest regards,Mitch.www.thebutterfly.info

[Greg Mitchell]

Pete,Got your email and pics as well as the word document detailing parts/cost ect.Very, very nice work. I'd be interested in purchasing same, if your selling.John,Was reviewing Rotary Forum and noticed a post by Ron Heron indicating the Butterfly/Matt Pearson soft start set-up was good and probably the way to go. I think Ron mentioned he has pulled his system and head/hub bar apart regularly and has not seen any noticable wear and tear. Matt also posted as above. I believe Allan has removed his pre-rotator and is hand spinning blades but Allan better explain and expand on this.RegardsMitch.www.thebutterfly.info

[Greg Mitchell]

Gentlemen,This link should get you to Ron Herons post and others on this subject. Scroll down to post N0: 22.Cheers,Mitch.http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/sho...butterfly.info

[asra]

Pete & Mitch, it's OK I'm not bawling my eyes out! One of the frustrations with posting on here is the problem Pete refers to in having previous publications ignored or misunderstood so that repetition is necessary. In any sort of academic discussion the usual path before publication is to review the literature and build on that. However we are here dealing with a disparate [?? sometimes desperate] group of individuals who are arriving in a discussion at vatious stages and variously equipped to engage on that discussion. Of course it's frustrating, but is it worthwhile? I believe so.Here I go being repetitive again, while there may be some benefit using the stainless steel welding wire as the resistor in the Butterfly Soft start, IMEEHO [in my ever extremely humble opinion]the benefit is illusory, of course Ron Herron won't find any evidence of excessive wear, the sort of impacts we're talking about won't show up that way. I'm baffled as to why people who have gone to the trouble of putting a basically good system together would stuff it up for $5 worth of Nichrome! If you look back in earlier posts you will see it explained.Now Peter, that washing machine motor works on 24 volts, I'm pretty sure it's DC, Its ability to spin up a full wet load of washing always impresses me when I'm allowed to play with it. The difficulty lies in the electronic circuitry to give it a circulating field.It's definitly something for someone other than me to play with.Oh, that was not a royal we, I did not wish to take the credit/oprobium for all that stuff by saying 'I' when it was done by Col & I.I hope you can get on with your training soon Mitch[8D]John EvansThink logically and do things well, think laterally and do things better.

[asra]

Anyone know much about carbon piles?Aussie Paul. []www.firebirdgyros.com

[asra]

Paul,This goes past old and into ancient technology, the one's that I saw around 30-40 years ago were round carbon disc's stacked one apon the other like stacking 20 cent coins, and then put under pressure, like pushing down onto the 20 coins to vary the resistance, I have a feeling that the early electric sewing machines used this principle, all the best paul.Pete Barsden