Hub Bars and Starter Motors

[asra]

Ok gents;The early model xv 1000 had a seperate safety clutch as an idler or reduction gear in the starter reduction assembly. When they bought out the xv1100 they changed the set up to a planetary reduction starter motor with the safety clutch inside the starter motor . this change was bought about by the frequent slipping of the early clutch unit and getting to a point where it wouldnt turn the donk over due to the compression and it needed replacement....some people welded them up and then smashed the crank case when it kicked back when starting.Unfortunately the planetry reduction modification wasnt that successful and they also slipped but you could shim them and get another 500 starts out of it. The early ones are the size of a golf ball and are a simple shaft in and out and could be used with some engineering but dont know if you could put it on the end of the bendix.to test them you would put one end in a vise and put a torque wrench on the other end and load it up till it slipped...about 60 foot lbs was the figure for a good one and the worn ones generally slipped at 35/40 lbs so a worn one might be the go.E=MC2

[asra]

John,Over the years I experimented with various electric drills and found them a waste of time, as for their switching units save your breath, the third generation of my units still in operation today use the Kawasaki planetary drive starter motor, as I wrote many years ago in the Gyro news, these draw discusting amount of current for output (torque speed) given, that is why I abandoned them and the forth generation was designed and made, it appears that various people are trying to get around this problem with out any cost, let me tell you from a professional point of view, you get nothing for nothing, you only get what you pay for and there are no free lunches.I do appreciate that a lot of people get into the Gyro scene thinking that it is cheap aviation, and as such do not have a lot of money to spend on their Aircraft, from my point of view, if I could have got around this problem eazier and cheaper I would have done so, having been around very high power DC switching most of my life I understand what is required, and what electric/electronic switching principles are involved, If anyone wants any more information and photo's of my unit please phone me on (089) 341-3327 Email--pjbarsden268@ozemail.com.auI am in the middle of changing over the computer box and the photo's I sent before may not have come out, hopefully the new box will sort this out, patience Paul. All the best Pete BarsdenPete Barsden

[asra]

Thanks Pete.Aussie Paul. []www.firebirdgyros.com

[asra]

Gotta disagree with you Pete![isn't that what this forum is all about?] I've had lots of free lunches[]. OK I'll admit it I'm a born scrounger - had to when I was a kid. Our wastefull throwaway society distresses me. As Mark points out there are beaut mechanisms out there which are either being thrown out, or are available very cheaply from wreckers etc.I have at least 2 resevations about the wisdom of using car starters for prerotation1) They appear to have fed the obsession with max rpm prerotation putting unwelcome strains on structure.(2) There seems to be some evidence that hanging that great lump up there to oscillate with the rotor head isn't good engineering.(3) I am averse to the thinking that expensive things are always better than cheaper things - that's how women determine the quality of an item when they are undergoing 'retail therapy'.We are constantly bombarded with marketing hype designed to make us feel good, -Toyota 'Oh what a feeling!' 'Things go better with Coke'.Let's be clear Pete I have great admiration for what you have done, but it is an approach I considered and rejected some time ago, but it should have a good market amoungst those who will feel good about using a sophistcated well engineered electronic approach. Me? No way, I'd rather use about $5 worth of Nichrome from Dick Smith to achieve a very satisfactory result.John EvansThink logically and do things well, think laterally and do things better.

[Brian]

There's another factor too there John and thats reliability of any switching product. I know I harp on it but unless something is pretty well bullet proof, it might not be of much use to most of us.I need my gyro to be ready to fly when I want it.You never know how far you can go, till you get there !

[asra]

Brian, I'm sure Peter's device would be well engineered and reliable, although given the fussiness of FETs, I'll stick my neck out and question whether it would be as reliable as the Nichrome resistor.John EvansThink logically and do things well, think laterally and do things better.

[asra]

Brian,HistoryWe commissioned very large switching power suites with very large power outputs using less reliable technology than today, i'm talking 20 years or more ago, they run 24 hours a day 365 days of the year, and still running.People are fearfull of the unknown or what they don't understand.All the best Pete BarsdenPete Barsden

[birdy]

20 years ago they made things to last,now they make'm soas your a repeat customer,in very short time.I'd like to hear from anyone who's bought anything in the last 20 years that IS reliable.At least as reliable as its predecessor.Ignorance is bliss............but only till you realise you were.

[asra]

John,This thread is moving so fast it's leaving our posts a mile apart.I have tried the cordless drill idea. The 12v drills don't have enough power in high gear and are too slow in low gear where they do have the power. There is a De Walt model which I think would do the job but it's $500 ! The drills must run in reverse to turn the blades the right way.I rather think that the engine driven way may be the gentlest and the most reliable in yhe long run.Fish.

[Ken Watson]

Has anyone tried cush drive rubbers on the ring gear( main gear) like on the rear of motorcycles. Race bikes (some) use small round cush rubbers on each mounting bolt. Also what about a small centrifugal clutch as used on some gokarts mounted between starter and ring gear withstronger springs allowing more slip. You can buy good quality ones for around $80 at kart shops. Slipping heaps will allow a gentle start. Ken.

[asra]

David, (Birdy)In my history I answered your questionin six (6) words."Using less reliable technology than today".All the best dave, Pete BarsdenPete Barsden

[asra]

[Allen (Fish)I agree with you entirely about the electric drill approach having been there and tried variations of same, If you think you may have the answer, buy the necessary material, make up what you think is required, fit and evaluate it, and let us all know the results.All the best Allen, Pete BarsdenPete Barsden

[asra]

Ken,Sounds like a great idea, give it a try and let us all know the results. all the best,Pete Barsden

[asra]

I'm inclined to agree with Fish. It's just that harnessing the unused engine at this time is awkward, but not impossible. Some sort of friction drive, whether it be slipping V belts as in the Robinson, Go kart clutches ,or whatever have to be better than car starters. Bendixes are also a source of concern, as the throw in with some can be quite a violent impact.One point which I think needs to be constantly considered involves the decision on what sort of RRPM is desired. It may be nice to have 200 up before you start your run, but the rotor, in most cases, seems to spin up very well once you're past 80 to 100, which can be achieved without a lot of power. I note Ron Herron, in the notes on the Little Wing recommends avoiding full throttle until past 200.John EvansThink logically and do things well, think laterally and do things better.

[asra]

John,Years ago in the same addition of the Gyro News (Vol. 16 No 4) I wrote on the twisted "V" belt pully approach and also on the mechanical neoprene pulley and aluminium disc approach, I will Quote one paragraph, "unless you are hell bent on improving your lathe skills I would recommend that you save your time, money and marriage".I agree with you on the standard motor spin throw in Bendix type, they can be quite violent, however, in the writings I sent you in the heading (a) This Pre-Rotator system is designed around the "Robert Bosch Planetary drive Solinoid pull in Bendix" permanent magnet Starter Motor.My own Gyroplane uses the above starter motor however, I use friction drive, a large aluminium disc driven by a small Neoprene pulley on the motor, the Bendix, Bendix housing, Sprague clutch and pull in Solinoid were dispensed with and an aluminum housing complete with two large ball races and a register fitted to the motor end of the new aluminium housing was used, I would put this in the same category as written in the Gyro News quote above.If anyone is interested in seeing my Electric Driver unit and installation, or the mechanical drive, I will Email photo's of same. All the best.Pete Barsden